Fr.Andrew

(Layman): Do you think that the bad deeds done in the name of God elminate the millions of people Christianity has saved or eased suffering for?
(Fr Andrew): I don't think the harm it did/does "eliminates" any of the good that religion did/has done, but I think that the harm done in the name of God outweighs the good --by a long shot.

Btw, Can you provide evidence for the "millions of people Christianity has saved or eased suffering for?"?
Were any of the "...poor, the widows and orphans" to which "Christians gave alms and support" pagans or Jews?
Or were the "alms and support" only for those already washed in the blood of the lamb...or committed to such a course in exchange for the "alms and support"?

Dr Rick

You have not refuted the references provided establishing the number in the millions, nor have you provided any evidence that suggests the number is anything lower.

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Do you think that the bad deeds done in the name of God elminate the millions of people Christianity has saved or eased suffering for?

That is an irrelevent red herring; the good works of Christians does not change the death tolls from their Inquisitions and Crusades.

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Because those are the historical facts. You do know what historical facts are?

During the Inquisition the Cistercian abbot famously ordered "Kill them all, God will know his own;" some forty thousand men, women and children were murdered. You may quibble about the numbers, but large numbers of children and infants were killed there and throughout the Christian campaigns.

Here's another historical fact quoted from Bertrand Russell: "The Spaniards in Mexico and Peru used to baptize Indian infants and then immediately dash their brains out: by this means they secured that these infants went to heaven." They were only being "merciful" in baptizing the children (to assure their salvation--a doctrine which, by the way, is false) and in killing them to keep them from "evil."

Here's some Biblical accounts:

The LORD sent me to anoint thee to be king over his people, over Israel: now therefore hearken thou unto the voice of the words of the LORD. Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. (1 Samuel 15:1-3)

As Thomas Paine observed in a letter from Paris to a Christian friend in 1797:

"What makes this order to destroy the Amalekites appear the worse, is the reason given for it. The Amalekites, four hundred years before, according to the account in Exodus 18 ...had opposed the Israelites coming into their country, and this the Amalekites had a right to do, because the Israelites were the invaders, as the Spaniards were the invaders of Mexico. This opposition by the Amalekites, at that time, is given as a reason, that the men, women, infants and sucklings, sheep and oxen, camels and asses, that were born four hundred years afterward, should be put to death"

The Christian God committed and condoned infanticide throughout the Old Testament:

"And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth....and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth...And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man. "(Genesis 6:5-7, Genesis 7:4, Genesis 7:21).

"They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God...I will spend mine arrows upon them....The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs."(Deuteronomy 32:21-25).

"And the Lord said unto him, Go through...the midst of Jerusalem, and... smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: Slay utterly old and young, both maids and little children, and women..." (Ezekiel 9:4-6)


"Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up." (Hosea 13:16)

At best, the Christian record on the subject of infanticide is mixed.

This is an ad hominem fallacy; notice how Bede doesn't cite any references refuting Joseph McCabe's totals. From 1209 onwards, Albigensians were murdered in the hundreds of thousands, with an estimated death toll of 200,000 on the low end and 1,000,000 on the high end. Tens of thousands of Jews were killed en route to the Middle East, and in 1348 alone between 8,000 and 14,000 Jews were killed, without even including the casualties of the Spanish Inquisitions and the other Crusades.

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I am a history graduate student at a wholly secular university

That's not evidence that Bede's argument is correct; it's just a non sequitur

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...and hence demand rather better sources than you have offered.

That's ironic; Bede has only referenced the witchhunts to imply that the death toll from the Inquisitions was lower than what historians say.

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If you don't want to do the work of looking at real history, that is fine, but please keep your crap out of serious conversations. If you can countenance a nine million death toll for the crusades you are really not worth bothering with. You've been added to my ignore list until you show some ability to think.

Another ad hominem, but still no refutation of the numbers given by Joseph McCabe or Paul Tobin.

Rick

Amos

Slow down Shake. If you go to Europe no Catholic will ever call him or herself a Christian (unless they want to get rid of evangelizing protestants).

I noticed that you do recognize the difference and that you also understand why Catholics are not Christians. Let me add here that it is because this difference that they are the target of protestant evangelists around the world.

There is no such thing as a follower of Christ because Jesus did not become fully Christ until the resurrection and after this he ascended and left the scene. So how can anybody be a follower of Christ! In Catholicism they are called Jesuits who are the followers of Jesus and so to be called a Christian is just evidence of ignorance.

Layman

If you consider citations to a website devoted to secularism and hostile to Christianity to be an authoritative "reference" then I agree with Bede. You can be switched over to Ignore without running the risk of missing out on any meaningful conversation.

brighid

I don’t know and maybe it’s just me, but I find it morally unconscionable that ONE innocent person was murdered and/or tortured at the hands of a Church allegedly possessed of the entire “truth” and led by the hand of the Holy Spirit, the spirit of this allegedly perfectly good, loving God!

Surely we are all glad that millions of men, women and children weren’t falsely imprisoned, intimidated by threat of physical force and severe bodily harm, and later murdered for ANY reason!

But to minimize the fact that tens of thousands of men, women and children were not only disenfranchised, but were murdered for a different belief system, many of whom met death through unimaginable means, all done with the authority and absolute approval of a Church sent to “deliver men from evil” and did so in a “procedurally correct manner” … eeee gads …

And for the sake of this disturbing argument, lets say that these tens of thousands of men, women and children were actually guilty of the crime of heresy and/or witchcraft. How can the penalty of death and torture EVER be justified when such punishments come from the body politic of THEE Almighty God?

Where was love thy neighbor as thy self, love thy brother as God has loved you and he loved you so much he willingly sacrificed his only son for your sins so you may be SAVED, thou shall not kill, thou shall not BARE FALSE WITNESS, and those without sin cast the first stone … and on and on ad nauseum??

And all of this didn’t happen in an isolated period, in some remote corner of Christendom. It happened over many centuries, at the behest of many Papal declarations, at the sword of many a Crusader, Inquisitor and ordinary citizen simply following “correct procedure” and again it was done with the seal of approval of the ONE institution on this Earth that was the earthly hand of THEE Supreme Being?

How can ANY of this be justified, in the eyes of modern man or even the men of that age? When is torture or penalty of death EVER a moral solution for a finite crime and especially for one of belief and in this case simply having the wrong belief in a procedure, but not the disbelief in Christ or even God?

Tens of thousands, quite possibly 100,000 human beings lost their lives at the hands of men, not at the hands of any God. Our hearts break with crushing pain and sorrow when a plane crashes killing hundreds of innocent victims and that heart is ripped wholly from our chests when men of God, beating the war drum of killing in His name for the sake of righteousness kill thousands of people.

What is wrong with this picture?

I am utterly disgusted. So much so that I feel the need to vomit! Murder and torture of any human being can never, regardless of what was acceptable of any age and it certainly is never acceptable when men are allegedly enlightened and filled with the spirit of a righteous and loving God.

I am going home now, but not before eating a handful of antacids.

Brighid

P.S. Bede ... don't bother responding ... this was meant as a rant and I do not honestly think I could stomach another justification of murder and torture of a SINGLE human being by fiat of proper procedure in ANY context.

Layman

Sounds suspiciously like mere prejudice talking.

I already discussed introducing prohibitions and stigma against infanticide to the western world. And much evidence for the charity work that Christianity has caused. Here's some more information about the drastic relief brought by Christian caused charity:

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...ht=infanticide

According to the Pagan Emperor Julian, who hated Christians, "The impious Galileans relieve both their own poor and ours... It is shameful that ours should be so destitute of our assistance." Epistles of Julian, 49.

Of course, this Charity was on a scale and scope much superior to the pagan world it intruded into:

And of course most of the babies that were thrown out to die, but saved by Christians, were pagan offspring.

And the trend continues:

More modern stuff:

Dr Rick

Have you ever considered the possibility of offering an argument instead of engaging in ad hominems?

Rick

Bede

Just for the record (again) as so many of you cannot read:

I have not justified, defended or called murder or torture acceptable. The fact that an attempt to look at the real history and get to the facts is immediately considered to be any of those things, is exactly the witch hunt mentality. While it is no surprise to see it manifested among ignorant human beings such as yourselves, it is ironic you consider yourselves rational and preach tolerance.

The effort to shut down rational debate by emotional rants is just like the tactics of witch hunters like Jean Bodin who insisted that as witch craft was so awful that no evidence or hard facts were needed. Witches ate babies, he said, and faced with such a horrific story who cares if that is a bit of an exaggeration. As no one has challenged my facts, merely the impiety of bringing them up, the job here is done.

Anyway, I'm off back to the Bible board as clearly this one is inhabited by more than its fair share of headbangers. I never thought I would be running back to the arms of Toto for intelligent conversation...!

Yours

Bede

Bede's Library - faith and reason

Yellum Notnef

I`m in complete agreement with you on this. It`s truly disgusting to watch as these aplologists try to justify and/or minimize the horrific past of their religion.

Bede would be doing the world a favor if he`d drop this "real historian" nonsense and go back to flipping burgers.
And he has the nerve to call us "headbanger" (whatever the hell thats supposed to mean.) Perhaps "headbangers" means something other than heavy metal fan in England?

Whatever.

Layman

How about just refuting erroneous and exaggerated statements? That's all Bede has done. But if believing in historical falsehoods or falsely accusing modern Chritians of "justifying" torture helps you maintain your prejudice, it is your right to cling to it.