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Originally posted by VeraciousMaven:
Queen of Swords:
Where does god give specifications of what offerings are sufficient and what are not?
I found it somewhat obvious that Cain gave God the skimpy offering, not because he couldn't do better, but because he didn't.
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Could you give me a bible verse that says, in effect, "God had specified in advance, what offerings were sufficient and what weren't. However, Cain gave Him a skimpy offering, not because he couldn't do better, but because he didn't."
Are there any bible verses that say the above? If not, we shall each have to draw our own assumptions, and mine is that god plays favorites.
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Again, please paraphrase the relevant answer and post it in this thread as your reply.
Again, why?
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If you are not capable of presenting a counter-argumentin this post, let me know. I don't want to waste time searching outside sources. If they have anything relevant to say, paste it here if it's not going to violate copyright; if it is, paraphrase it accordingly.
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Please explain how a slave dying at once is different from a slave dying in a day or two.
Who said a slave dying in a day or two was a good thing?
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Apparently your god, because if the slave dies in a day or two, the owner is not severely punished because "the slave is his property".
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And what does that have to do with the difference between slavery in 18th/19th century and biblical times?
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Nothing. Did I say it did?
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What is natural about never having a spouse/soulmate/lover, especially if you had one that you loved very much on earth?
Quote to me the exact verse again. Hopefully by the time you have copied it, you will have grasped my point.
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"In the resurrection and the life, they neither marry nor are given in marriage."
And your point is... ? That this is "above nature"? Well, what you consider to be supernatural, I consider to be anti-natural, and you'll have to explain how eternity is supposed to be bearable without even the benefit of sex/marriage.
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So did Jacob see god or not? If not, why did he say, "For I have seen God face to face"? Either the bible is contradicting itself, or Jacob is deluded.
Face to face. Man to man. Not God to man. God in man's form, not God in God's form.
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But your point is that no one has ever seen god's real face. Therefore for Jacob to see god's false face is no big deal. Why would Jacob say, "For I have seen God's face and lived" if there was nothing special about the man-body that God decided to appear in? The only reason for him to lay emphasis on the "my life is preserved" (Gen. 32:30) would be if he saw God's real face.
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So when it says "slay my enemies", what does it really mean? Spank my enemies?
Tisk, tisk, now you're doing it on purpose.
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Tsk, tsk, now you're evading the question.
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This is a hideous code of behavior. Please explain why a god of love would want slaves to suffer in this way, without once trying to better their situations.
Paul and Silas in prison. Did not God make good from that?
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I said "slaves" in general, not "Paul and Silas". Several Africans died in agony or misery during the antebellum period of the States. Please explain why a god of love wanted them to suffer like that, and specifically ordered them not to try to better their situations.
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But you just said that it was good for slaves to take whatever punishment their masters handed out without trying to escape. Therefore, by being part of the Underground Railroad, Tubman did something very wrong. She probably broke god's heart, according to the code of "ethics" that you support.
Again you ignore that slavery changed dramatically.
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So what are you saying? That because slavery changed (and you'll have to give some evidence for the "dramatically" part), the laws in the bible no longer apply?
I like this reasoning, by the way. Since marriage has also changed (dramatically) the laws of marriage no longer apply too, yes?
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So tell me the correct interpretation. Where it says "slay them", it actually means.... ?
Enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them -- bring them here and kill them in front of me. Did you consider that this would be the people who rejected God?
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Please tell me the correct interpretation. Stop evading the question. Where it says "slay them" it actually means.... ?
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Of course I'm serious. When you are deliberately unclear, it's much easier for your supporters to claim you meant X, when many other people believe Y.
Why would a struggling religion be deliberately unclear?
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Same reason struggling Nostradamus was unclear, of course. Easier to defend in the face of controversy.
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How did they know that their religion would be a major religion years and years to come?
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Who claimed that they knew this?
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Perhaps he should try to make them easy to understand. After all, the eternity of people might depend on it some day. If god can do anything, why couldn't he inspire Paul to write in a way that explained matters?
Paul was sending a letter to a church. Maybe all the "errors" in the bible, are only their to make us read more deeply into it, as we are meant to do.
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Please provide evidence that the errors are there,
not because Paul was mistaken, but because he wanted us to read more deeply into it. A verse such as "The errors in my letters, such as ordering women not to have authority over men, are there for you to read more deeply into my letters" would be fine.
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In other words, if you come up with a different interpretation from mine, you're wrong, stupid, mentally unstable and you'll burn in hell. Way to destroy the opposition.
You can come up with a different idea, but when you purposely twist and ignore the words ....
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Please explain what the "different idea" is, then. It seems very clear : ignorant, unstable people twist it to their own destruction. But no doubt this is yet another misinterpretation?
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Who else would make it difficult to understand? God? The devil? And if he "accidentally" made it difficult to understand, couldn't God have corrected that mistake?
Why should He, when the mistakes allow for such great critical thinking into the Bible?
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Please show an example of this "great critical thinking" done by christians.
Most of all, the mistakes just make the bible look like a deeply flawed book, and not the kind of thing that anyone should defend as inerrant.
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Pkease explain why "things" means "actions" in this context. I usually define "things" as objects; you'll have to show why this definition is wrong (in this context). And if actions are accomplished by people, and a hurricane blows down a house, did people destroy the house or create the hurricane?
"Let all things be done ..." Let all actions be done? Let all objects be done? Which fits?
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"Let all people be done..." Hm, that doesn't fit so well either, unless it's a mass orgy you have in mind.
And please answer the question : "If a hurricane blows down a house (an action) have people destroyed the house or made the hurricane?
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By the way, if there's something in the bible that I don't like, can I also bet that it should not be taken literally?
Provide proof that the author's intent was directed elsewhere, then yes.
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What sort of proof? Another bible verse? For example, god curses the serpent to eat dust in Genesis, yet serpents do not eat dust. Therefore, the author's intent was to tell a fairy-tale story. And Genesis should not be taken literally.
That goes, yes?
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Are you incapable of selecting a counter-argument or paraphrasing one and posting it in this thread?
Are you incapable of clicking a link and saving us both time?
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Incorrect. I won't be saving myself time. Just you. Not going to happen.
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No, you have not touched on the orders of this god, for example, in Joshua 6:21. He has more blood on his hands than Idi Amin does.
It's there ... only a press of the mouse button away.
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If it's so simple, please cut-and-paste the relevant section here. Edit, Copy, Paste. Just two clicks of the mouse button away.
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Does this mean that all the people and animals killed by the Israelites will be brought back to life? Will they go to heaven or hell? And does the act of bringing them back to life justify their murder?
John 5:21 "For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whome he is pleased to give it." So, if He wants to, he'll do.
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Repetition of the quote is not answering any of the questions, but I can see why you are incapable of answering them.
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Deuteronomy 22:13-29. Does all this apply today?
Does it? What does Jesus say about Marriage?
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Please answer the question. If a man rapes a virgin in the city, should they both be killed?
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Yes. He's a faithful abuser. He breaks your bones, but he doesn't want to be married to anyone else. He beats your children, but he only wants to have sex with you. Are you allowed to divorce him?
Tough isn't it? But Christian marriage is the union of two people to be as one flesh. You found a scenerio where it is unlikely that both mother and father are Christian, and impossible that their marriage is the union of two people to be as one. Question being, were they ever truely married (by Christian standards, in which the bible would hold sway over their lifes)?
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Yes, they were truly married. Will you now answer the question? Are you permitted to divorce this faithful abuser?
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Please comment on the logic of giving an order that no one is capable of obeying.
Coach: Be the best kid, give 110%, NEVER give up!
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The difference is that the coach is not a god. No one believes that he is serious about "give 110%". Are you saying that god also uses hyperbole and gives orders that he does not expect us to literally obey?
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Could you please find a verse where Jesus says something like, "It's not that I favor the Jews over the Gentiles. You can go to the Gentiles and the Samaritans eventually - just stay away from them for a TEMPORARY period of time. I love the Gentiles as much as I love the Jews".
I found it pretty obvious that it was temporary as he told them to go witness to all peoples later.
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How does this make up for his Jews-before-Gentiles attitude, including the fact that he calls Gentiles "dogs"? Are you saying that he repents of his racism later?
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No you didn't. You brushed it off with a "that's not meant to be taken literally". That doesn't explain anything, unless you're saying that Jesus, like Paul, decided to be deliberately unclear?
Did you even read 37? "Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me"
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Why does Jesus use the word "hate"? If we are not to take this literally, what does it really mean? Or was Jesus mistranslated? Or did he decide to be deliberately unclear?
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This does not explain Jesus's use of the strong word "hate". Unless you're trying to show that the bible has more misinterpretations than I originally thought it did?
You can't accept the fact that God wants you to love Him more than your family?
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I can't accept the fact that God wants me to hate my family. Unless you're saying the bible has yet another mininterpretation?
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You seem to have selected one definition of blasphemy out of the several given here. Could you provide evidence that your definition of blasphemy is the correct one?
If it were not, then the bible would be unable to make other statements concerning redemption.
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Why not? It contradicts itself so much anyway
Seriously, though, please provide evidence that the definition of blasphemy you have selected is the correct one. A verse from the bible would be fine.
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Then the bible contradicts itself, because Jesus said he would given them whatever they asked for. Also, how are christians supposed to know god's will? And won't he do what he wants anyway, without them praying for it? What is the point of prayer if all it accomplishes is to make god do what he was going to do in the first place?
First of all, God does make his will known.
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Evidence? For example, if you were trying to decide between two jobs, would god tell you which one he wanted you to have?
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Secondly, Christians knowing God's will is part of the active walk with Christ.
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Again, evidence of this?
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Lastly, you cannot truly ask in Jesus' name and be selfish at the same time.
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Why is this? What stops you from asking for a scholarship in Jesus's name?
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The burden of evidence is on the person making a claim. You claim it's "race", show evidence that it's "race". I have all the evidence I need for my side, here in my KJV which says "generation". Ball's in your court, loverbug.
You're the one trying to disprove the bible. Thus it is YOU who is making the initial claim. Nothin' but luv to ya.
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I already provided the evidence. My KJV says "generation", therefore it's "generation". Back at you, angel.
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Then perhaps the writers should have been more clear. You'd think a god would keep better watch over his book.
So say you. Oh, great and mighty human.
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Are you saying that your god didn't watch out for his book? That explains the condition it's in.
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Really? Where's your evidence that it was meant to be looked at in one way but not in another? And if it can't stand up to a little skepticism, that says volumes about the bible, doesn't it?
Evidence? Is it not obvious? In order to get anything out of almost any form of literature you must think critically.
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I said "where's your evidence that it was meant to be looked at in one way {critically} but not in another {skeptically}". I take it you have none?
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And a hundred or so years of standing up to skepticism says volumes about the bible doesn't it?
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Who said it stood up to skepticism?
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Oh, and I checked out that site. It seems to be a nice bundle of misconceptions/misinterpretations in one nifty site. Maybe you should check the site out that I posted eh?
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No. I didn't post Don Morgan's site or SAB as an answer to any question. I didn't require you to look at them. If you have any counter-arguments that you have obtained from another site, please paraphrase them and present them in your next post, because I do not have the time to look at other websites.
[ December 18, 2001: Message edited by: QueenofSwords ]</p>
12-17-2001, 09:38 PM
