lpetrich

Or a quest for "Living Space".

Derec

Care to elaborate?

[B]There was never an independent country of Palestine. The area was part of the Ottoman empire until the WWI. After WWII UN decided that cis-Jordan will be partitioned between Jews and Arabs (even though Arabs got the whole of trans-Jordan).

This was not the case of invading someones house.

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Of course they don't keep refugees, they drove most of the Palestinians out in '48!

Nonsense. Israel was established and was promptly attacked by several Arab countries (including Iraq by the way). The refugees are from that war of aggression, not from the formation of the State of Israel.
By the way, most of the "refugees" everyone talks about are not. Since the war happened over 50 years ago, most of them are decendents of real refugees (and most of the real refugees are dead). So there can not be a "right to return" to where one has never lived.

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The Serbs didn't keep Kosovar refugees either! "They could have been integrated into Albanian society".

If you cared to investigate the history of that conflict you would see that Serbs were a majority in Kosovo for centuries until very recently. Just to clarify who drove whom out here.
The unilateral support of Albanians in this conflict was a grave mistake by the United States.

UMoC

fatherphil

i know you do so only grudgingly

Skeptictank

The bombing of a hotel by Zionist militants, the slaughter of the entire village of Deir Yassin (sp?) by the Irgun and Stern gang. All sorts of fun events.

Quote:

There was never an independent country of Palestine. The area was part of the Ottoman empire until the WWI. After WWII UN decided that cis-Jordan will be partitioned between Jews and Arabs (even though Arabs got the whole of trans-Jordan). This was not the case of invading someones house.

It doesn't matter if there was an "independent country" of Palestine or not. There weren't "independent" countries in Africa but that certainly didn't give the right for Europeans to colonize the place and it didn't negate the fact that people were certainly living there. The point is Arabic people were living in Palestine, as the majority for centuries and suddenly the British decide that since they feel guilty about the holocaust, they are going to carve out a Jewish state from this land.
It most certainly WAS someone's house. In fact there are, literally, cases of Palestinians holding deeds to houses in Israel which are now occupid by Israelis.

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Nonsense. Israel was established and was promptly attacked by several Arab countries (including Iraq by the way). The refugees are from that war of aggression, not from the formation of the State of Israel.

Nonsense my foot. The whole point is the establishment of the uniquely Jewish state was illegal and many Arabs were driven out of their homes by Jewish militants in an attempt to gain territory and make it ethnically homogeneous..
Today we would call it "ethinic cleansing".

Quote:

By the way, most of the "refugees" everyone talks about are not. Since the war happened over 50 years ago, most of them are decendents of real refugees (and most of the real refugees are dead). So there can not be a "right to return" to where one has never lived.

Here's one for you....NONE of the Zionists that come to the area were returning refugees. Their ancestors hadn't lived there for 2000 fucking years! Yet somehow all Jews for all eternity are given the "right of return" by Israel and Palestinians, including those who ACTUALLY lived there, and their kids, are denied the same right.
By your definition the Zionists had no right to come back at all.

Quote:

If you cared to investigate the history of that conflict you would see that Serbs were a majority in Kosovo for centuries until very recently. Just to clarify who drove whom out here. The unilateral support of Albanians in this conflict was a grave mistake by the United States.

Well, define "very recently". The Albanian population had certainly lived there for several generations.
So you support what Milosovic and Co. did? Why does this not surprise me at all?

Gurdur

Oh come off it.
I juist love the way you atttempt the all-inclusive smear.

Haganah were Zionist, and weren't involved in the Irgun's actions; there were plenty of Arab atrocities before Deir Yassin; and BTW, weren't you someone who defended the way the USA was colonised, which makes the Irgun look like rank amateurs ?
So you think Jews are not entitled to nationalism ?
You think it's OK to smear an entire broad movement by the actions of a few ?

Oh dear, I am unsurprised.

sphinx wui

Hi everybody,

I am following your forum for sometime but this is my first post here. I am an Egyptian with Muslim background and English is not my mother tongue and may be this is why I don�t want to share in the discussions here but I can�t hold myself with a topic like this. The other thing that encourages me to write in this forum is that most people if not all are non-religious at least and this excludes �the chosen people�, �the promised land � arguments or any Pat Robertsonism.

The story from my point of view is like this; guy P was at his house with his family when guy I came with a gun and kicked guy P with his family out of the house telling him that he has a contract with god 4000 years ago considering the ownership of the house and during this time he was traveling overseas for some business until guy H with his G people started to kick the hell out of him so he came back and he is in no mode for discussion because of what guy H did to him. Guy P started to complain and make troubles to take his house back so guy I made an offer for guy P to stay in the shed with his family under the following conditions:
He can�t open any window in the shed.
He can�t have a separate phone line.
Nobody can visit him until he checks first with guy I.
If guy I wants to do anything inside the shed, he is completely free to do whatever he wants without any objection from guy P.
Guy I will keep surveillance cameras and some German Shepard dogs inside the shed just in case.
Guy P was thinking that guy I is joking but for his surprise, he found everybody cheering guy I for his generosity especially guy A who gave guy I the gun and a lot of money (some say 3 billion another say 5 and others say much more). At this point guy P went nuts and started to do crazy stuff and the cops keep arresting guy P calling him criminal and the persecutors demanding his execution for bothering peaceful and democratic guy I.

I think it is obvious what I mean by this fairy tale.
The funny thing about this problem is that when Arabs tell the story they start from balfore declaration 1917 (I am not sure about the spelling) who was the foreign minister of Britain during this time and everybody tell us that it is history and we have to get over it but when we ask them to tell their side of the story they start it from 4000 years ago when Jews where in Egypt etc etc !!!!!!!! And they speak about it as it happened yesterday!!!

The only evidence Jewish people can come with is the OT and I think I don�t need to discuss this evidence here in this forum! Do I??
There is the argument that there never been a Palestinian state during this time as if there was an Israeli state!! The whole region until 1924 were Ottoman province, there was no Syria, Lebanon, Jordon as we know them today and they use to call this area El Sham, including Palestine. Even Egypt, one of the oldest nations on earth, was an Ottoman province, so what? This means that Egypt has no right to exist! And if we will take the OT argument seriously for a while, what about the gold that the Jewish people stole from Egypt under direct order from their god!!(Exodus 3-21, 11-2 and 11-35&36) and they claimed that it is compensation for their slavery in Egypt which is another lie and if you review the OT itself in Jeremiah42-15,16,&17 you will know how the Jews think of Egypt in their subconscious mind as a heaven on earth,so if you believe in the "promised land thing" you have to believe also in this "gold thing" and as an Egyptian i need this gold back ASAP with its interest!!!!!!!!!!!

Most of the Jews in the beginning of this conflict came from Poland and Russia and has no link what so ever to this land and you can check by yourself the biographies of people like Ben gorion, Golda meir, Isaac Shamir(who by the way was wanted by the UN for killing its envoy and later became prime minister )Moshe Dian, Shaoul Movaz (came from Iran) and Benjamin Ben Aliazar (came from Iraq) etc, etc

Speaking about terrorism, I am happy that some people here came with names like Irgun, stern, Hajanah and Deir Yassin and I want to add some other peaceful names like Jabotonisky,Zevi lumi, Josh Amonim, Shas, Offadia youssef, Baroch Goldstein, Sabra and Shatela but there is other name in the list which is �Lavon Affair� which is very interesting to me as an Egyptian and if you don�t know it you can check it by yourself on the net and see for yourself what the search engine will come with.

I am not religious at all and I have no problem with any faith but if you come to my house in Cairo telling me that you have a contract with god which gives you the ownership of it, I can guarantee for you a bullet between your eyes and I will do my best to charge your family the price of this bullet.

Most people think that the problem between us and the Jews is like the problem between Germans and Europeans in general and Jews which is utter non sense.when everybody in medieval Europe was kicking them out of his country, the save heaven for them was Spain which was under the control of Arabs during this time and the Jews themselves called it their golden era and after the inquisition in Spain, Jews left with Muslims and inhabited the north African coast and other provinces of the Ottoman empire without any problem. What happened for them in Germany is none of our business and you can give them part of Germany as a homeland or if you are in love with them in America which is the case know, why you don�t give them one of your fifty states and solve the problem!!! Arabs hate Israel, this is right, but not because they are Jews, it is because of their actions.

Some people ask why the Arab countries like Egypt, Syria and Jordon don�t take the Palestinians and give them citizenship in those countries and solve the problem! Simply cause if we do such thing, with time there will be no Palestinian people after it was no Palestinian state and their destiny will be very similar to the destiny of the Native Americans (little rude but true!)

If you have any comments about my spelling and Grammar, save it and don�t try this trick with me, English is not my mother tongue and this is the best I can come up with, writing in a foreign language is like driving a bus without steering wheel so, please don�t mix cards.

best regards,
Omar

fatherphil

the palistinians might do well to learn from the american indians. they could set up gaming facilities and everything because trying to reclaim alcatraz island is not going to get them much.

they've got land now, lets see what they can do with it. so far using it as a platform to launch violence from is not turning out to good for them.

Darwin26

Omar, i really got a lot out of your post. I'd not say enjoyable but connected and imformative. Your Spelling and Syntax superb.
i hope you will continue to post ... It is very valuable for us to see and hear these crucial points.

sphinx wui

dear father phil:

learn what? how to be anhiliated the right way?
just for curiosity,are you a religious person? the name is very suspicious!

dear Darwin 26
thanks for the complaisance, i took the first step after long incubation period and you will find me more often in this forum.

Selsaral

Me too, I found a lot to agree with in Sphinx's post. (And by the way your written English is excellent).