Muffinstuffer

Er, can you elaborate a bit on this? You lost me. *L* The only thing that makes one a Christian is professing belief in Christ, and accepting the conditions that He set forth. If ANY of those people did that, and did that honestly and wholeheartedly, then YES, they WERE/ARE Christians. But if not, they weren't. You really did lose me on this one; I don't mean to be rude.

livius drusus

Muffinstuffer, you should raise these issue in the CSS forum. There have already been several threads on Barton's loose interpretation of fact (David Barton Automatons, Barton at it again), and I think you might be interested in perusing some of the extraordinarily researched posts of the CSS regulars. For instance: What were the Framers definitions of "Separation"?, How is the US Constitution a result of "Christian principles"?, New Take on Separation, among many, many others.

hezekiah jones

Originally posted by livius drusus
Muffinstuffer, you should raise these issues in the CSS forum.

Oh please. I'm getting a chub just thinking about it.

[Nice archiving there btw, livius d.]

Muffinstuffer

Well crap. I just posted a big fat LONG response....and then my computer crashed. I just now got it back up. I'll respond in the near future when I'm not pissed at the PC.

tribalbeeyatch

I'm generally very polite to the door-to-door proselytizers. The thing that really gets under my skin, though, is the ones who take a condescending tone with me. They seem to assume that since I am not a believer of their stripe then I must be ignorant of The Good News. I'll generally rebut any of their points that I feel like bothering with and try to politely send them on their way. Like many door-to-door peddlars, they are usually not very good at taking 'no' for an answer, and I'm often forced (by lack of alternatives) to end the exchange by closing the door in their faces. I can't say that I feel bad for doing it, though; they don't have any more of a right to facetime with me than somebody selling vacuum cleaners or magazine subscriptions.

Goliath

Muffinstuffer,

You, like dozens upon dozens of xians that I've seen on this board and know irl, tried to elevate yourself above other xians by saying that they weren't really xians (or "claimed to be xians"). Being what you consider to be a "true xian" is irrelevant. As far as religious affiliation is concerned, a xian is a xian is a xian.

Sincerely,

Goliath

Muffinstuffer

Your last sentence is correct...at least as far as RELIGIOUS AFFILIATION is concerned, they ALL sought to associate themselves with Christianity.

As far as 'elevating myself' above them...I have just said about 2 or 3 times in this thread that I'm no better than any other person. What qualifications do you use to determine whether or not one is a Christian? I never heard David Koresh claim to accept Christ as his savior. I heard him profess to BE Christ, though.

Rhea

Interesting that you should bring this up. I've always found it to be both profoundly insulting and profoundly entertaining at the same time.

When I hear a christian say that, I think to myself,

translation: "there is nothing that being a christian does for you in terms of behavior, it's just that I'm going to heaven and you're not. Neener, neener."

Think about it. What is the purpose of the statement. Can you argue that it is NOT just a statement of neener neener?

I've always been genuinely perplexed when christians think it's a useful statement. Makes me lean toward a little sarcasm. if you'll indulge me, "Atheists aren't forgiven, they're just nicer." Hmmm, I'll have to work on that.

schu

Isn't there some little part where he says we are going to hell if we don't believe in him? That ain't just standing at the door, that is eternal fire for not believing him!

Cipher Girl

Hi Muffinstuffer

Welcome to II. You really have a busy thread here.

My question is this....laying all the remarks and such aside, does anyone really take into account the fact that there is a genuine desire on the part of the believer to 'help' (I'm enclosing that word in quotes for y'all's benefit ) those who do not believe?

When I get approached by a christian with this tone, I immediately think of somone high on their "Christian" plateau looking down to "help" those poor deluded heathens. This coming from someone I don't really know irritates me. It imples a lack of respect for my position. The person isn't really thinking of me, but of themselves only, and how good it will make them feel to "help" the non-believer.

Before you try to "help" someone, why not first take the time to get to know them. Perhaps you will find they are happy with thier life and really have no need of the "help". Perhaps you will find they have already considered the offer and have very good reasons for not accepting the "help".

Again, I did say above that I may have had the misfortune of meeting a lot of the 'abnormal' atheists/agnostics who are bitter/unhappy/rude/blah blah blah.

Perhaps you only remember the rude ones. What about the ones who were polite, or simply ignored you with "yeah, whatever."?

I worked at a job once where we discussed religion all the time. It started when me and a co-worker (a evangelical christian but not fundy) started discussing religion. We had a lot of fun as we both respected the other's position. We also had been friends and served in the Air Force together for some years. We discussed things that the other co-workers sometimes had problems with. They were amazed that we could discuss homosexuality, incest, genecide, etc in religion and the bible while having a civil discussion.

But then he did not try to witness to me, and I did not insult him either. He knew that as an intelligent person living in the US, I had already heard the christian message and had rejected it with some well thought out reasons.

It was interesting when a new subcontractor joined our team at work. This one was a far-right fundy christian who would get very upset when my friend would say something and I would come back with a counter argument. This fundy person would get very angry with the fact that an atheist was giving her opinion about something religious. It got really bad one day when he stated that "people like me should have a bullet put in the backs of thier heads." I responded with "I'd like to see you try, but remember my daddy taught me to shoot when I was 5 years old." Well, he stormed out of the office, and I've already described what happened later in another thread.

What was even funnier, however, was the promise keeper manager who put christmas cards one everyones desk but mine, and two other co-worker's desks (one was jewish and one was buddhist). We got that "special tract" treatment. YUCKKK.

So I don't think it was me giving the bad attitude, but I will stand up for myself, even if it means sometimes getting in someone's face to do it.

Sorry for the long post, and welcome.