Viti

All right...just what is all this "5 Choices" nonsense?


I am pretty sure I will say D'OH when I hear the answer

Doctor X

Well if you are going to call it "nonsense" . . . well . . . then I am not going to tell you. . . .

--J. "MY Ball!" D.

AquaVita

[mod hat on]

Everyone settle down.

I realize that tempers are flaring up, but we all need to keep the rules in mind.

I'm keeping an eye on this thread to make sure it stays within acceptable guidelines. Let's keep it cool, ok?

Thanks for your attention.

Aqua-GRD Mod

Bumble Bee Tuna

Your post, after you got bast the lovey-dovey language, in essense boiled down to:

"I am a caring and compassionate person who sees the glory of God in all things. I love people.

You atheists are immoral people who don't give two shits about anybody, lacking any emotions. Also, you hate everyone, and your lives are hopeless and filled with despair and grief."

At least, that's the impression I got. While you never came out and set it, your questions were obviously designed to set up a dichotomy between you the loving caring wonderful theist and the atheist. Thus, the atheist is implied to be the opposite of the loving caring and wonderfulness that is you. You accomplished this by giving a mock answer to the first question along this vien so that the reader would understand your tone and be able to fill in the blanks after the rest of the questions.

Apology accepted, but forgive me if I'm skeptical (I am a skeptic, after all) of whether your post really wasn't at least partially intended as a passive-aggressive attack. I don't know, maybe you really are just naive and didn't realize it, but know that your post sounded very insulting to those of us capable of reading between the lines.

-B

Whispers

QUOTE---Your post, after you got bast the lovey-dovey language, in essense boiled down to:

"I am a caring and compassionate person who sees the glory of God in all things. I love people.

You atheists are immoral people who don't give two shits about anybody, lacking any emotions. Also, you hate everyone, and your lives are hopeless and filled with despair and grief."

REPLY---I understand why you choose to see it this way. I can say with my hand on my heart, that the post was not intended to upset you in this way. Most of my friends and family, including my wife are Atheist, and I most certainly have never felt or think now the things you have suggested. This thread is more an effort to provide a space where we can share the experiences we all have and how they differ, based on whether we believe in God or not. Perhaps I am a little naieve, cause when I look back on my OP, I DO see why it may have caused tension.

QUOTE---Apology accepted, but forgive me if I'm skeptical (I am a skeptic, after all) of whether your post really wasn't at least partially intended as a passive-aggressive attack.

REPLY---No need to forgive you, as I respect an analytical and sharp mind. You are right to be doubtful, as long as you can also find it in yourself to balance that with trust, where applicable.

QUOTE---I don't know, maybe you really are just naive and didn't realize it, but know that your post sounded very insulting to those of us capable of reading between the lines

REPLY---Sorry again....

winstonjen

When I look a 11 month old child dying slowly of cancer, I see horror, ugliness, shock...and the presence of God...

What would you see? The end result of processes, without real meaning or significance?

When I look at an amazing nuclear explosion in the sunset, I see a god given free work of art, created by the 'free will' he loves to give to humans.

What would you see?

When someone dies that I love, I see a vision of hope, salvation and glory for that person. Only if they worship like me, though. Otherwise, it's off to hell with them. Either way, I wouldn't weep for them.

Do you have hope in our life? Do you have meaning? Do you feel that you have any kind of significance?

I do....

Fixed it for you.

Whispers

The pictures of that baby have shaken me to the core......I am not lieing to you all, when I say that I am very disturbed by this and already my newly found faith is under threat. You see I have been a Theravadan Buddhist for 8 years or so, but over the last year I have been drawing closer and closer to Christianity. The last few months have been turmoil in my life, my mind and my heart......God or no God? Salvation or Void? Meaning or no meaning? Y'all know the questions that plague us.

Just as I seem to have settled into my new faith and started learning more, those pictures, along with the others from that thread have completely undone me...completely. Now what am I supposed to believe? That God in his infinite wisdom would allow this to happen to an "innocent" babe? That it is all part of his divine plan. Like most people, I adore the littlke people, and I simply cannot formulate any kind of answer to why a divine being would allow a woman to be pregnant for 9 months and then give birth to a very poorly baby that dies a few days later.

Some of you will probably laugh at me and feel chuffed, that my opening post and the confidence I displayed has been shattered so easily. Perhaps I deserve to be laughed at =) I just want to be honest with you all, as you are to me, and let you know where I now currently stand..................I just don’t know !

Doctor X

Whisper:

I see one or two possibilities: either you wandered into this place whilst having a transition in faith or you are pulling everyone's leg and making this all up--conversion from Teravada to finding Christianity to now a crisis in faith.

Frankly, I have little patience for "sockpuppets" or people who play "let's pretend" on internet boards. By way of background, I read over the last few months one hell of a doozy of a "fake-job" on another board--she kind of lost it claiming she was posting from the psych-ward.

She "fooled" a lot of people. I disagree. A lot of people gave genuine empathy.

Thus, I will assume the former. I mentioned all of this because if for some reason the rest of what I wrote is seen as falling for "the game" I really do not give a fuck.

Now. . . .

Religion provides a comfort, a feeling that "someone" cares. It provides a hope for justice--Mengele may have died peacefully, but we can hope he is currently hanging by his testicles listening to Hank Williams Sr. music.

To lose that seems a great . . . well . . . loss. Note well the "fun" thread on Santaism (PBUH!). Santa (PBUH) is a great guy. Someone, far away, cares if you are naughty or nice.

What a let down to know it was "just your parents."

However, we live in the real world. Real life horrors exist--as you have seen. Any philosophy or belief on how the universe works--and religion is, ultimately, such a thing, must account for the good as well as the bad.

The case you saw--and there are others--lead us to some very disturbing conclusions. To save time, because I have posted it before [ZZZZzzzzZZZZ--Ed.], that a child suffers unjustly, in the manner you see, leads us to five possible choices:

1. No gods exists.
2. A god exist and he is evil.
3. A god exists and he is incompetent.
4. A god exists and his is irrelevant.
5. Some combination of 2-4.

Neat.

I will spare you the reams of bandwidth on how that all works. I will concentrate on the "great, now what."

The "now what" is a hard one to answer--if I could "give the answer" to perfect strangers, I would not be here, I would be behind my mahogany desk with various potentates in line to meet with me and drink of my wisdom whilst various young, nubile but highly experience [GET ON WITH IT!--Ed.] Er . . . yes . . .

I would suggest recognizing your responsibility in what you can control in your life. Understand the good of things while not forgetting the bad. Sounds like a fortune cookie? Well, unfortunately, trying to treat others with respect and making your area of life as good as you can does seem hokey, but that does not diminish its validity.

Understand that many feel "hurt" by Christianity and religions and tend to react badly to those who profess them. Some forget that they once believed--some remember and the memory is painful. Thus, understand the somewhat negative reaction you may unwittingly generate when discussing your wrestlement with faith in "Christianity."

However, also understand that--here--some have spent a great deal of time studying religion, so they have specialized knowledge of the NT. What they "know" is not necessarily "popular"--walk over to BC & H and proclaim that Jesus is predicted in the OT and see what happens . . . bring bandages. . . .

Right, I have pontificated long enough.

--J.D.

Whispers

Please know that I am not a fraud and most certainly would not waste my time coming on a message board pretending to be someone that I am not. That is most definitely not my style. I am indeed undergoing, and have been for some time, a crisis of faith and am lost as to where I stand with regards to creation, meaning etc etc. Just as I thought I had answers, they have been taken away. That is not necessarily a bad thing though, as all I seek is truth in whatever form it exists. Some of you may rest assured in your faith or lack of faith, but I am stuck in a world of simply not knowing. Right now, that doesn’t feel acceptable to me......I really want to know answers to the questions that have haunted mankind since time began. Foolhardy maybe, but I am driven.

I was reading "A Path With heart", by Jack kornfield last night. It is a spiritual book for the seeker of truth, with Buddhist undertones, and yet is designed for everyone. Whilst reading, I really enjoyed the simple and profound message of the Buddha which speaks throughout this book. Perhaps I shall just return to my Buddhist roots, self enquiry and gentle observation.

Diadectes

Whispers -

I don't think for one minute that you are a fraud. Indeed, I know exactly where you are coming from. I was in much the same situation as you about ten years ago. The only advice I can give is to let it ride - the confusion will settle with time, if, as I did, you allow yourself to realise that there is no need for explanation. The universe is beautiful, awesome, terrifying, deadly and mysterious. I found comfort in simply contemplating the vast mystery . It was a huge weight off my mind to cease battling for answers. The universe simply is and requires no justification. We are a tiny, tiny part of it and the majority of our concerns are local and relative. Read Ecclesiastes, if you feel the need to turn to the Bible, and follow its advice to live in the moment, treat other people with decency, and just let whatever happens happen and meet the demands accordingly (Seem to vaguely recall that this was basically what Jesus was saying too, before the church decided to clothe the message in the rotting flesh of dogma and superstition.) Anyway, that's how I got through it, but of course you may find a different way. But rest assured, you will find a way. The important thing, though, is that it is your way.