Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Valentine Pontifex · 09-19-2002, 12:51 PM

From "No Answers in Genesis":

Bubba · 09-19-2002, 01:17 PM

Pretty good. I'd say that Gould was probably one of the best science minds and one of the best writers of the twentieth century.

I'll miss his writings.

Bubba

Xeluan · 09-24-2002, 02:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bubba:
Pretty good. I'd say that Gould was probably one of the best science minds and one of the best writers of the twentieth century.

I'll miss his writings.

I recently had the time to finally read Gould's "Rock Of Ages." The same though crossed my mind quite a few times.

I was amazed by his knowledge of arcane history and his ability to weave it into his musings on science as a whole. I hope for the day when creationist will read Gould to understand and not just mine quotes.

I could never quite understand why creationists so frequently targeted Gould.

Xeluan

hyzer · 09-24-2002, 04:03 AM

Note that the cartoon is by Tony Auth, award winning editorial cartoonist of the Philadelphia Inquirer Newspaper. One of the benefits of living (near) & working in Philly is having my daily dose of Auth's superb work.

Duvenoy · 09-24-2002, 07:17 AM

Stephen, we miss ya, bro.

doov

Skydancer · 09-24-2002, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Xeluan:


I recently had the time to finally read Gould's "Rock Of Ages." The same though crossed my mind quite a few times.

I was amazed by his knowledge of arcane history and his ability to weave it into his musings on science as a whole. I hope for the day when creationist will read Gould to understand and not just mine quotes.

I could never quite understand why creationists so frequently targeted Gould.

Xeluan

Very simple, really... Gould presented a change in the original Darwinian gradualism when he introduced the concept of punctuated equilibrium. This means he's got a lot of published statements that can be distorted into apparent anti-evil-ootion comments. So they quote-mine him like crazy.

Xeluan · 09-24-2002, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skydancer:


Very simple, really... Gould presented a change in the original Darwinian gradualism when he introduced the concept of punctuated equilibrium. This means he's got a lot of published statements that can be distorted into apparent anti-evil-ootion comments. So they quote-mine him like crazy.

I think that is part of it but not all. For example this is from the <a href="http://www.arn.org/docs/wedge/mh_wedge_020522.htm" target="_blank">May 22nd</a> Wedge Update by Mark Hartwig.

Quote:

A vigorous defender of naturalistic evolution, he nonetheless supplied its critics with some of the most damaging evidence against it-much to the annoyance of the Darwinist establishment. His penchant for contradictory and disingenuous statements, however, exasperated friend and foe alike.

On the one hand, he could fire off a statement saying that neo-Darwinism, "as a general proposition, is effectively dead, despite its persistence as textbook orthodoxy."1 But then he could turn around and declare, "Darwinian selection will not be overthrown; it will remain a central focus of more inclusive evolutionary theories."2

Gould also insisted that evolution was a strictly naturalistic-indeed, accidental-affair: "No intervening spirit watches lovingly over the affairs of nature (though Newton's clock-winding god might have set up the machinery at the beginning of time and then let it run). No vital forces propel evolutionary change. And whatever we think of God, his existence is not manifest in the products of nature."

He famously asserted in Wonderful Life that if the history of life were replayed, human beings would be unlikely to reappear.

Yet he seemed reluctant to accept the implications of those views in the arena of human affairs. He was long a vigorous critic of the biological determinism found in the works of such theorists as E.O. Wilson, Richard Dawkins, and contemporary evolutionary psychologists.

Such inconsistencies have variously been attributed to confused thinking, politics and a failure of nerve. But they also said something good about the man. Gould sincerely believed in the freedom and dignity of his fellow humans beings. His world view would not allow such "subjective" beliefs to trump his conviction that evolution is true. But neither did he let that conviction overthrow what he knew deep in his heart to be true-not on that score, anyway.

In this respect he was a better man than his theories. And that streak of humanity will be missed for a long time to come

Hartwig - either through design or stupidity, I do not know- totally distorts Gould's ideas. While Gould made evolutionary theory accessible to the layperson, to fully appreciate Gould's ideas you had to understand Gould's position in context of debate within evoultion. It seems that many of Gould's critics in the ID/Creationist side refuse to do that.

I also don't see how arguing that human life would not appear if we started evolution all over again is inconsistent with arguing against biological determinism. Then given Hartwig's idealogical perspective, it is easy to understand why he argues so.

In "Rock Of Ages". Gould mentions The Reverend Thomas Burnet. Burnet, in while trying to explain aspects of the Bible such as the Great Flood with natural history (as then understood) rejected miracles (defined as events outside or that suspend natural laws) as being destructive to any scientific account.

Miracles are used to explain complex events much in the manner of Alexander cutting the Gordain Knot. Gould writes "Some call it boldness; I, and apparently Burnet as well, call it anti-intellectualism.)"

I don't think it is an original thought but above is the best description of the how the ID movement approaches science I have come across so far.

Xeluan

PS There is a little snippet of Gould somehwere above unattributed. It is intended as a tribute not plagarism.

Secular Pinoy · 09-25-2002, 03:20 AM

I don't know if SJ Gould would have appreciated that cartoon. He spent a fair deal of space in Wonderful Life highlighting, then debunking that particular icon.

Oolon Colluphid · 09-25-2002, 03:39 AM

Ref Gould's fight against genetic determinism, it was a fight against a straw man, as Dawkins has repeatedly stressed.

Oolon

Xeluan · 09-26-2002, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Oolon Colluphid:
Ref Gould's fight against genetic determinism, it was a fight against a straw man, as Dawkins has repeatedly stressed.

I picked up "Dawkins Vs Gould" by Kim Sterelny yesterday. Not a long book but does help explain the disagreements between the two.

Regarding genetic determinism, is there anyone that holds such a view?

Xeluan

09-19-2002, 12:51 PM	#1
Valentine Pontifex Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Orion Arm of the Milky Way Galaxy Posts: 3,092	Stephen Jay Gould From "No Answers in Genesis":

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09-19-2002, 01:17 PM	#2
Bubba Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Orient, OH USA Posts: 1,501	Pretty good. I'd say that Gould was probably one of the best science minds and one of the best writers of the twentieth century. I'll miss his writings. Bubba

09-24-2002, 04:03 AM	#4
hyzer Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: philadelphia Posts: 1,844	Note that the cartoon is by Tony Auth, award winning editorial cartoonist of the Philadelphia Inquirer Newspaper. One of the benefits of living (near) & working in Philly is having my daily dose of Auth's superb work.

09-24-2002, 07:17 AM	#5
Duvenoy Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Just another hick from the sticks. Posts: 1,108	Stephen, we miss ya, bro. doov

09-25-2002, 03:20 AM	#8
Secular Pinoy Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Quezon City, Philippines Posts: 1,994	I don't know if SJ Gould would have appreciated that cartoon. He spent a fair deal of space in Wonderful Life highlighting, then debunking that particular icon.

09-25-2002, 03:39 AM	#9
Oolon Colluphid Contributor Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Alibi: ego ipse hinc extermino Posts: 12,591	Ref Gould's fight against genetic determinism, it was a fight against a straw man, as Dawkins has repeatedly stressed. Oolon

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