Thor Q. Mada

Luvluv

Off-course good old Martin Luther was thinking for himself, judging from his "Reason should be destroyed in all Christians".
He was a real nice guy.

mfaber

If it's not too late, here's a cache of questions from the Infidel Guy---&gt;<a href="http://www.infidelguy.com/questions_to_ask_theists.htm" target="_blank">
"These questions will make your Mamma an atheist...Check'em out!"</a>

Allow me to provide links that document Luther's "attitudes"

<a href="http://www.twelvetribes.com/Legacy%20of%20Martin%20Luther.html" target="_blank">Legacy of Martin Luther
</a>

<a href="http://christianactionforisrael.org/antiholo/naziluth.html" target="_blank">Nazis Expropriated Luther's Anti-semitic Rantings</a>

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/purcellbm/luther.htm" target="_blank">The Protestant Reformation</a> (explains why Luther, in 1525 wrote his infamous tract <a href="http://www.tasc.ac.uk/histcourse/reformat/maincore/rupp6213.htm" target="_blank">
Against the Robbing and Murdering Hordes of Peasants ). </a>

And how about some lovely quotes from Luther <a href="http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/luther.htm" target="_blank">on reason, sex and women,etc?</a> <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

[ August 29, 2002: Message edited by: mfaber ]</p>

WinAce

Ugh... I don't really know what questions would be best for a *Christian/Jew* combo, since it was written mainly for Christians. Do the Jews believe in original sin and all that crap, or do they interpret it differently?

mfaber

The short answer to your question is---No, the Jews DON'T believe in the "Original Sin" and view it as just another Christian "corruption" of their texts..........
<a href="http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/j1solutions/reference.html" target="_blank">From the "Jews for Judaism" Reference Library</a>

<a href="http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/j1solutions/faq/faq123.html" target="_blank">
Question: Do Jews believe in the doctrine of original sin?</a>

<a href="http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/j1solutions/faq/faq124.html" target="_blank">
Question: Isn't it true that humans are so innately sinful that they need an outside sinless agent to redeem them from sin? </a>

<a href="http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/j1solutions/faq/faq125.html" target="_blank">
Question: What are the implications of the Christian doctrine of original sin? </a>

Christian views of the original sin.............

<a href="http://www.gospeltruth.net/menbornsinners/mbs03.htm" target="_blank">
Are Men Born Sinners?</a> (more than one "version" of this doctrine!)

<a href="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11312a.htm" target="_blank">Original Sin (the Catholic view)</a>

PS--The Christian/Jewish "combo" came up only because luvluv referenced Martin Luther as an example of a Christian thinker (a very bigotted one!...I wonder if luvluv know just how much!). As a young priest Luther originally argued against the harsh treatment of Jews by the Church, claiming that all that was really needed was "gentle, intellectual persuasion". When Luther finally realized that the Jews were steadfast in their convicts, regardless of what form the "persuasion" took, he did a complete about-face and wrote polemic after polemic condemning them and calling for their eventual extermination.

Needless to say, the Nazis were very fond of dear old Martin.................

[ August 29, 2002: Message edited by: mfaber ]</p>

Theli

This is the typical cry of despair by christians loosing their faith. And it's also a typical salesargument for religion. A dangling carrot, meaning served to the masses like fast-food.
How many times have we heard this rant?

luvluv

I don't remember asking whether or not Luther was a nice guy, I asked whether or not Luther could think for himself.

It's a ridiculous stereotype to say that Christians cannot think for themselves. You do realize, of course, that more work has been put into debunking the logical proofs of God BY CHRISTIANS than by atheists? (Particularly for the ontological argument, which, besides Hume, has been debunked mostly by theists. Then there are folks like Kierkegard IIRC, who believe that people should not even attempt proofs)

In fact, Christians are by far the most disputatious group of individuals in organized religion. How can you explain the phenomenon of denominationalism with your belief that Christians cannot think for themselves?

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Many of you are just out and out bigots. Take this gem for example:

How would that be different from me saying, for example, that in my experience with black people they all like fried chicken?

Answer: it ain't different. Both statments are bigoted extrapolations from limited data.

One day you folks will realize that intelligent, open-minded people can disagree with you.

[ August 30, 2002: Message edited by: luvluv ]</p>

hal9000

If God is good, kind, just and benevolent, why did he kill all of humanity with the exception of Noah and his family for the sin of corruption? After all he is also omnipotent, so he could chose any thing short of mass murder to get people to change their ways, couldn’t he?

Got an answer for that luvluv?

luvluv

The short answer is that I don't think He did.

I'm not a Biblical literalist.

wade-w

LuvLuv, you DEFINITELY picked the wrong example of a "christian thinker"

You ask if Luther could think for himself. Well, it seems dear old Martin wasn't very fond of independent thought. And as for an open mind:

hal9000

Thanks Luvluv, that clears things up somewhat for me. So some parts of the bible are true, and some parts aren’t. According to you, God didn’t drown almost all the human race, that’s a fairy tale. Hum, could you be so kind as to tell us all what other parts of the bible are also fairy tales? That would sure save us a lot of time trying to figure out what is true and what isn’t in that book, wouldn’t it? I really look forward to your reply.