Freethought & Rationalism Archive

MBR · 10-16-2002, 07:15 AM

Quote:

U.S. statute regulating work, commerce, and amusements on Sundays. The name is said to derive from a list of Sabbath regulations published (on blue paper or in blue wrappers) in New Haven, Conn., in 1781. Throughout colonial New England such laws regulated morals and conduct. Most lapsed after the Amer. Revolution, but some, such as prohibitions against the Sunday sale of alcoholic beverages, remain on the books in some areas.

Here in Georgia, you cannot even purchase a Beer on Sunday. What inspired these laws? Have they been challenged constitutionally?

It would seem to me that these laws blatantly favor christian sabbath believers in business. While their business is not operating on Sunday due to their religious belief, the heathens would be able to profit by taking the business that they turn away. Also, what of Saturday worshipers, laws that recognize the Sabbath for christians discriminate against other religions that require their believers to worship on Saturdays. These individuals are now missing 2 days of business compared to the Sabbath believers who only miss one since the law is established in accordance to their religion.

atheistdave · 10-16-2002, 08:03 AM

There was some recent local controversy about Blue Laws pertaining to motor vehicle dealers in Indiana being closed on Sunday. The article I read metioned that there was nothing stopping this from changing if enough people desired it. However the dealers themselves were against Sunday sales so they could have a day off and not feel compelled to be open.

While most of these old laws are direct results of church influence, some have turned out to be good things for some folks.

Dave

Sakpo · 10-16-2002, 08:38 AM

Off to Church/State/Activism...

beejay · 10-16-2002, 09:15 AM

<a href="http://iidb.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=55&t=000588&p=2" target="_blank">Relevant thread in Lifestyle forum</a>

Quote:

Have they been challenged constitutionally?

As my posting (9/25/02) in the other thread says, this has been challenged and found constitutional (at least in a similar case), but that was back in 1961.

I think to challenge the "no beer on Sunday" law in Georgia, you would have to be a seller of beer who was prohibited from selling, not just someone who wants to buy.

(But I'm no lawyer...)

Toto · 10-16-2002, 10:07 AM

<a href="http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=366&invol=420" target="_blank">McGowan v. Maryland</a>

The theocratic implications are discussed <a href="http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/theocracy.htm" target="_blank">here</a>.

Quote:

Clearly, the decision to require closing of certain commercial establishments on Sunday (rather than, say, Tuesday) had something to do with the Biblical admonition to "Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy." But the Court found that the secular benefits of having a uniform day of rest, allowing the scheduling of community activities free from many work conflicts, predominated over any present day religious purposes or effects, and thus the Sunday closing law was constitutional. The Eighth Circuit used a similar analysis in Clayton, upholding the Purdy, Missouri school district's ban on dancing, finding a secular purpose even when there was ample evidence that the no-dancing policy was maintained in response to pressure from conservative local church groups.

The Supreme Court's stance on the Establishment clause is not exactly consistent, or you could say it is "ever-evolving". Or you could say that it follows the last election.

Daggah · 10-16-2002, 03:01 PM

I don't think you can (or even SHOULD) claim that these laws are unconstitutional. Sure, they're religiously motivated, but do we dare step that close to such a slippery slope? If we claim that religiously motivated laws are unconstitutional too...how does one decide whether other laws are religiously motivated? Does one have to have a secular reason for holding an opinion for that opinion to be valid?

The quality and worth of an idea should be judged good or bad by the actual idea, not the motivation behind it.

Daggah · 10-16-2002, 03:02 PM

And btw, I'm speaking in a general sense.

Blue laws are pretty freaking stupid.

Nataraja · 10-16-2002, 07:53 PM

If I owned a business, it would be open on Sundays and I would get rich off these idiots closing up on that day.

Toto · 10-16-2002, 08:06 PM

Blue laws are pretty much history in the US, except perhaps for some restrictions on the sale of alcohol. It is ironic when you consider all those conservatives who want to post the Ten Commandments in courthouses, when one of the most important commandment in the OT was to remember the Sabbath and keep it holy, and I bet none of those conservatives would seriously propose closing all retail stores on Sunday, restricting driving, or taking Sunday football or cartoons off the TV and replacing them with church services and sacred music. (If they did, I bet they would discover suddenly that this is not a Christian nation after all.)

Philosoft · 10-16-2002, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Daggah:
<strong>I don't think you can (or even SHOULD) claim that these laws are unconstitutional. Sure, they're religiously motivated, but do we dare step that close to such a slippery slope? If we claim that religiously motivated laws are unconstitutional too...how does one decide whether other laws are religiously motivated? Does one have to have a secular reason for holding an opinion for that opinion to be valid?

The quality and worth of an idea should be judged good or bad by the actual idea, not the motivation behind it.</strong>

I think one could ask if the law in question serves a secular purpose. Is that not a legitimate indicator of constitutionality? Of course, I'd say it's probably easy enough to come up with a quasi-plausible secular purpose. Especially when you're dealing with an activity that can have irrefutable negative consequences.

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10-16-2002, 08:03 AM	#2
atheistdave Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Dana, IN USA Posts: 225	There was some recent local controversy about Blue Laws pertaining to motor vehicle dealers in Indiana being closed on Sunday. The article I read metioned that there was nothing stopping this from changing if enough people desired it. However the dealers themselves were against Sunday sales so they could have a day off and not feel compelled to be open. While most of these old laws are direct results of church influence, some have turned out to be good things for some folks. Dave

10-16-2002, 08:38 AM	#3
Sakpo Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Pacific Northwest (illegally occupied indigenous l Posts: 7,716	Off to Church/State/Activism...

10-16-2002, 03:01 PM	#6
Daggah Banned Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Deployed to Kosovo Posts: 4,314	I don't think you can (or even SHOULD) claim that these laws are unconstitutional. Sure, they're religiously motivated, but do we dare step that close to such a slippery slope? If we claim that religiously motivated laws are unconstitutional too...how does one decide whether other laws are religiously motivated? Does one have to have a secular reason for holding an opinion for that opinion to be valid? The quality and worth of an idea should be judged good or bad by the actual idea, not the motivation behind it.

10-16-2002, 03:02 PM	#7
Daggah Banned Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Deployed to Kosovo Posts: 4,314	And btw, I'm speaking in a general sense. Blue laws are pretty freaking stupid.

10-16-2002, 07:53 PM	#8
Nataraja Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: NC Posts: 433	If I owned a business, it would be open on Sundays and I would get rich off these idiots closing up on that day.

10-16-2002, 08:06 PM	#9
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Blue laws are pretty much history in the US, except perhaps for some restrictions on the sale of alcohol. It is ironic when you consider all those conservatives who want to post the Ten Commandments in courthouses, when one of the most important commandment in the OT was to remember the Sabbath and keep it holy, and I bet none of those conservatives would seriously propose closing all retail stores on Sunday, restricting driving, or taking Sunday football or cartoons off the TV and replacing them with church services and sacred music. (If they did, I bet they would discover suddenly that this is not a Christian nation after all.)

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