Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Queen of Swords · 03-06-2003, 01:13 PM

Originally posted by ImGod
When they go to church stay home and do something nice for them like clean the house, yardwork, wash a car, etc.

That's exactly what I do when my parents go to church. So they bring me back cake from the after-church coffee hour.

mmm... cake...

Ensign Steve · 03-06-2003, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by QueenofSwords

That's exactly what I do when my parents go to church. So they bring me back cake from the after-church coffee hour.

Don't eat the cake! It has been drugged. It is their tool for brainwashing you into their religion. If it has peanuts in it, it will cause you to vote republican!

Seriously, though, to get kind of back on-topic, that is so true. Show all those concerned that it is possible to lead a moral and happy life without the aid of religion.

starscape · 03-06-2003, 03:33 PM

You're not single-handedly going to be able to destroy their theist beliefs. Your best bet for now, is to refuse to discuss their religion or their religious beliefs with them or anyone else in their community. And ask that you be left alone. If that is unacceptable to them, then you may have to leave. Get it out of your head that you are going to enlighten them. It's an internal process rather than an external one.

Smile, be proud of yourself, and hold to what's logical and reasonable in the face of illogic. Just say no to mind control.

starscape

Doru · 03-06-2003, 04:27 PM

I was going to suggest Russell's 'Why I Am Not A Christian", but I see someone's done it already, good work. However, I find it slightly worrisome that you should need advice on how to defend your beliefs (or non-beliefs, for that matter) - you ought to be certain of what you think is true before engaging in conversations with any believer, their minds are very well set and you're in for long and arduous (and ultimately sterile, alas) arguments.
Here are a few quotes - the easiest way to get away from a conversation on religion is to quote someone else, and since they are sure to quote their sacred book, you might as well hit back with some of these (in no particular order):
RELIGION, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. (Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary)
"If it turns out that there is a god, I don't think that he's evil. But the worst that you can say about him is that basically he's an underachiever." -- Woody Allen
BIGOT, n. One who is obstinately and zealously attached to an opinion that you do not entertain. (Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary)
"No free man needs a god" -- Vladimir Nabokov, "Pale Fire"
CHRISTIAN, n. One who believes that the New Testament is a divinely inspired book admirably suited to the spiritual needs of his neighbour. One who follows the teachings of Christ in so far as they are not inconsistent with a life of sin. (Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary)
"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact than a drunken man is happier than a sober one." -- G. B. Shaw
HEATHEN, n. A benighted creature who has the folly to worship something that he can see and feel. (Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary)
"People may say what they like about the decay of Christianity; the religious system that produced green Chartreuse can never really die." -- Saki (well, this won't be very useful in a conversation with a Mormon, but I had to put it in - if you've ever had Chartreuse you'll know what I mean :-)
IMPIETY, n. Your irreverence toward my deity. (Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary)
"Most people are bothered by those passages of Scripture they do not understand, but the passages that bother me are those I do understand." -- Mark Twain
PIETY, n. Reverence for the Supreme Being, based upon His supposed resemblance to man. (Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary)
"God: a disease we imagine we are cured of because no one dies of it nowadays." -- Emil Cioran
PRAY, v. To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy. (Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary)
"So far as I can remember, there is not one word in the Gospels in praise of intelligence." -- Bertrand Russell
"An ideology is a belief system with an inadequate basis in reality; a religion is a belief system with no basis in reality whatsoever." -- Martin Amis
I could go on for another ten pages, but these should suffice. Good luck with everything - you'll need it.
Cheers,
Doru.

ProNihil · 03-06-2003, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Doru
However, I find it slightly worrisome that you should need advice on how to defend your beliefs (or non-beliefs, for that matter) - you ought to be certain of what you think is true before engaging in conversations with any believer, their minds are very well set and you're in for long and arduous (and ultimately sterile, alas) arguments.

Doru.

Doru,
Thank you for your response to my dilemma. I enjoyed reading the quotes and will deposit them into my library for later use.

In answer to the above quote however, I will say that I am certain of what I believe. What I was asking people for was the "how to" of debate. i.e.- how to spot a fallicious arguement by adhering to the rules of logic and debate. I was not asking for specific reasons not to believe; I already possess a plethora of those. But, if I am to be engaged in a (hopefully) mutually beneficial discussion of the subject, which I hope to do since I personally enjoy discussions of that nature, then I must be equipped with the ability to lay out my arguements in a logical fashion.

Stabby- · 03-06-2003, 05:50 PM

ProNil-

The key to a good discussion is an agreement on term definitions.

A good starting point is "what is knowledge? What is consciousness? What is the definition of a soul?" Etc..

Usually, once asked the convoluted and non-logical answer "creates" a counter argument. If you listen close, the illogic of their answer should just sort of pop out. Then ask for clarification.

The tough part of this method, is that you need to have good answers to your own questions.

If they say "If prayer is a circular way to truth-- how do you find truth?"
You'd better be ready to give a good definition of truth that works for you.

Usually, they don't know the answers to the basic assumptions of their worldview, they've never really bothered to think about it, they just go along with the crowd because that's the easiest thing to do-- and the discussion ends.

A key theme I see in most theist definitions is an absolute trust in various absolute notions. Once you start asking for core definitions and basic methods of knowing-- without circular answers, you'll eventually get an absolute testament of faith-- and sometimes that comes with a slightly embarrassed look.

Don't be surprised if the most common reaction to you is fear. Being part of the "group" is very important to mormons, and they won't risk that with too many serious questions.

Good luck

stabby--------

ProNihil · 03-06-2003, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Stabby-
ProNil-

The key to a good discussion is an agreement on term definitions.

A good starting point is "what is knowledge? What is consciousness? What is the definition of a soul?" Etc..

Usually, once asked the convoluted and non-logical answer "creates" a counter argument. If you listen close, the illogic of their answer should just sort of pop out. Then ask for clarification.

The tough part of this method, is that you need to have good answers to your own questions.

If they say "If prayer is a circular way to truth-- how do you find truth?"
You'd better be ready to give a good definition of truth that works for you.

Usually, they don't know the answers to the basic assumptions of their worldview, they've never really bothered to think about it, they just go along with the crowd because that's the easiest thing to do-- and the discussion ends.

A key theme I see in most theist definitions is an absolute trust in various absolute notions. Once you start asking for core definitions and basic methods of knowing-- without circular answers, you'll eventually get an absolute testament of faith-- and sometimes that comes with a slightly embarrassed look.

Don't be surprised if the most common reaction to you is fear. Being part of the "group" is very important to mormons, and they won't risk that with too many serious questions.

Good luck

stabby--------

stabby,

Thanks very much for your pointers. I have printed them off so that I can include them with my current list of things to learn.

Bumble Bee Tuna · 03-07-2003, 12:43 AM

Why do you need to destroy their arguments?

Just tell them "I will not believe in God until I see proof of his existence, just as I do not believe in leprechauns, elves, or invisible pink unicorns. Do not mention it again until you have evidence."

They will never have evidence. When they bring up something that they really think is evidence, dismiss it with a quick reason as to why you do not consider it evidence. Do not discuss further. "The Resurrection? Nope, you can't use an unverified story in one part of a book to verify the rest of it.".

This will save you a lot of wasted time arguing with people you'll never get through to. Seriously, don't bother.

-B

Vorkosigan · 03-07-2003, 02:26 AM

Sorry, I gotta side with Snedden on this one. Far too many religious bigots have kicked out atheist kids. My advice would be to keep your mouth shut, act like it is a phase, and use the possibility of conversion as a lever to pry things out of them.

PRO: "Hey, Dad, I was thinking about that book you lent me the other day, you know, about how there was a god for each planet? That's really deep. It really made me think."

DAD: "Really? Well! I am glad to hear that!"

PRO: Yeah? So listen, I was wondering about my tuition for Yale the other day...."

See? Play'em like fish. You're never going to convert your parents. So don't worry about it. Besides, why do you want to pick on your meal ticket? Do not bite the hand that feeds you....

Vorkosigan

LogicMage · 03-09-2003, 05:22 PM

You could always go to Http://www.stardestroyer.net My friend Mike Wong has a in addition to his HUGE Star Wars vs. Star Trek site, also rns a very good Creationism Vs Science site, and an accompanying message Board. http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/index.php

03-07-2003, 02:26 AM	#19
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	Sorry, I gotta side with Snedden on this one. Far too many religious bigots have kicked out atheist kids. My advice would be to keep your mouth shut, act like it is a phase, and use the possibility of conversion as a lever to pry things out of them. PRO: "Hey, Dad, I was thinking about that book you lent me the other day, you know, about how there was a god for each planet? That's really deep. It really made me think." DAD: "Really? Well! I am glad to hear that!" PRO: Yeah? So listen, I was wondering about my tuition for Yale the other day...." See? Play'em like fish. You're never going to convert your parents. So don't worry about it. Besides, why do you want to pick on your meal ticket? Do not bite the hand that feeds you.... Vorkosigan

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03-06-2003, 01:13 PM	#11
Queen of Swords Contributor Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Canada. Finally. Posts: 10,155	Originally posted by ImGod When they go to church stay home and do something nice for them like clean the house, yardwork, wash a car, etc. That's exactly what I do when my parents go to church. So they bring me back cake from the after-church coffee hour. mmm... cake...

03-06-2003, 03:33 PM	#13
starscape New Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3	You're not single-handedly going to be able to destroy their theist beliefs. Your best bet for now, is to refuse to discuss their religion or their religious beliefs with them or anyone else in their community. And ask that you be left alone. If that is unacceptable to them, then you may have to leave. Get it out of your head that you are going to enlighten them. It's an internal process rather than an external one. Smile, be proud of yourself, and hold to what's logical and reasonable in the face of illogic. Just say no to mind control. starscape

03-06-2003, 04:27 PM	#14
Doru New Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Japan Posts: 1	I was going to suggest Russell's 'Why I Am Not A Christian", but I see someone's done it already, good work. However, I find it slightly worrisome that you should need advice on how to defend your beliefs (or non-beliefs, for that matter) - you ought to be certain of what you think is true before engaging in conversations with any believer, their minds are very well set and you're in for long and arduous (and ultimately sterile, alas) arguments. Here are a few quotes - the easiest way to get away from a conversation on religion is to quote someone else, and since they are sure to quote their sacred book, you might as well hit back with some of these (in no particular order): RELIGION, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. (Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary) "If it turns out that there is a god, I don't think that he's evil. But the worst that you can say about him is that basically he's an underachiever." -- Woody Allen BIGOT, n. One who is obstinately and zealously attached to an opinion that you do not entertain. (Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary) "No free man needs a god" -- Vladimir Nabokov, "Pale Fire" CHRISTIAN, n. One who believes that the New Testament is a divinely inspired book admirably suited to the spiritual needs of his neighbour. One who follows the teachings of Christ in so far as they are not inconsistent with a life of sin. (Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary) "The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact than a drunken man is happier than a sober one." -- G. B. Shaw HEATHEN, n. A benighted creature who has the folly to worship something that he can see and feel. (Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary) "People may say what they like about the decay of Christianity; the religious system that produced green Chartreuse can never really die." -- Saki (well, this won't be very useful in a conversation with a Mormon, but I had to put it in - if you've ever had Chartreuse you'll know what I mean :-) IMPIETY, n. Your irreverence toward my deity. (Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary) "Most people are bothered by those passages of Scripture they do not understand, but the passages that bother me are those I do understand." -- Mark Twain PIETY, n. Reverence for the Supreme Being, based upon His supposed resemblance to man. (Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary) "God: a disease we imagine we are cured of because no one dies of it nowadays." -- Emil Cioran PRAY, v. To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy. (Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary) "So far as I can remember, there is not one word in the Gospels in praise of intelligence." -- Bertrand Russell "An ideology is a belief system with an inadequate basis in reality; a religion is a belief system with no basis in reality whatsoever." -- Martin Amis I could go on for another ten pages, but these should suffice. Good luck with everything - you'll need it. Cheers, Doru.

03-06-2003, 05:50 PM	#16
Stabby- Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: the west Posts: 161	ProNil- The key to a good discussion is an agreement on term definitions. A good starting point is "what is knowledge? What is consciousness? What is the definition of a soul?" Etc.. Usually, once asked the convoluted and non-logical answer "creates" a counter argument. If you listen close, the illogic of their answer should just sort of pop out. Then ask for clarification. The tough part of this method, is that you need to have good answers to your own questions. If they say "If prayer is a circular way to truth-- how do you find truth?" You'd better be ready to give a good definition of truth that works for you. Usually, they don't know the answers to the basic assumptions of their worldview, they've never really bothered to think about it, they just go along with the crowd because that's the easiest thing to do-- and the discussion ends. A key theme I see in most theist definitions is an absolute trust in various absolute notions. Once you start asking for core definitions and basic methods of knowing-- without circular answers, you'll eventually get an absolute testament of faith-- and sometimes that comes with a slightly embarrassed look. Don't be surprised if the most common reaction to you is fear. Being part of the "group" is very important to mormons, and they won't risk that with too many serious questions. Good luck stabby--------

03-07-2003, 12:43 AM	#18
Bumble Bee Tuna Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Middletown, CT Posts: 7,333	Why do you need to destroy their arguments? Just tell them "I will not believe in God until I see proof of his existence, just as I do not believe in leprechauns, elves, or invisible pink unicorns. Do not mention it again until you have evidence." They will never have evidence. When they bring up something that they really think is evidence, dismiss it with a quick reason as to why you do not consider it evidence. Do not discuss further. "The Resurrection? Nope, you can't use an unverified story in one part of a book to verify the rest of it.". This will save you a lot of wasted time arguing with people you'll never get through to. Seriously, don't bother. -B

03-09-2003, 05:22 PM	#20
LogicMage Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Deep within the recesses of a twisted mind Posts: 74	You could always go to Http://www.stardestroyer.net My friend Mike Wong has a in addition to his HUGE Star Wars vs. Star Trek site, also rns a very good Creationism Vs Science site, and an accompanying message Board. http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/index.php

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