Freethought & Rationalism Archive

GunnerJ · 07-11-2002, 02:13 PM

Ojuice- one thing about your view of religious history is that you state that during the Roman Empire, the Mediterranian was Jupiter's domain. (This may have been on another thread.) But other cults were important in Roman life as well, such as those of Sol Invictus and Mithra, the later especially so for the Roman army.

On that note, how do you account for Mithra? You say that the fall of Greco-Roman paganism represented a takeover by Jehovah, but were does Jesus fit in? Do you think that, given the similarities between Mithra and Jesus, that Mithra "switched teams" and betrayed the Roman pantheon to join up with the rising star of YHWH as Jesus?

(Of course, I see all this "politics of the gods" as being fairy-tale BS, but it is interesting.)

Ojuice5001 · 07-11-2002, 05:24 PM

Here's my best guess. Jesus was a sort of focus for the power of YHWH, a tool in his campaign to take over the world. So what was Mithra? My guess would be that he was an attempt by another god (probably from the Middle East pantheon) to do the same thing.

Of course, this position seems odd if you think that Jesus was a historical individual and Mithra wasn't. But it's entirely possible that both were historical, or neither was.

[ July 11, 2002: Message edited by: Ojuice5001 ]

Ojuice5001 · 07-12-2002, 05:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Egoinos:
Give them free booze and recruit pretty women.

That'll get you members

On a more serious note, nick the ideas of Christian evangelists. They only use serious apologetics on people who challenge them, or people they know to be atheists. When someone gives you a tract on the street, it doesn't deal with the issues that I for one consider to be the stumbling points of Christianity.

Basically, produce some tracts (or a website) which are full of good graphics, stick a little humour in there, and present the basics of your religion. Don't bother with questions such as "do the gods exist" but emphasise the culture that came with them, and the myths that most of us grew up with about them. Make it pretty, make it simple, make it attractive - I reckon you'll only get a small percentage of people who will demand answers for more serious questions. When it comes to whether the gods exist, of course, you can just use that old Christian argument - the design argument. It doesn't prove your gods exist anymore than it proves theirs does, but that doesn't bother them, so why should it bother you?

--Egoinos--

[ July 11, 2002: Message edited by: Egoinos ]

Great idea. I think a great tract could be written about the Roman idea of pax deorum. I will write one up, and go to the copy shop with it. Thank you.

Eudaimonist · 07-12-2002, 05:45 AM

Just make sure you don't include this guy in the tract.

Unless he converts to paganism, of course.

[ July 12, 2002: Message edited by: Eudaimonist ]

daemon · 07-12-2002, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ojuice5001:
Fact One: Jupiter and crew are quite likable as fictional characters. People's feelings toward the mythology, and other cultural elements, of Rome and Greece are generally favorable, even in this present-oriented culture. So what's the problem?

I just about choked on my coffee when I read this. "Likeable" is not really a word I would use to describe the traditional Jupiter/Zeus; a line of explitives would be closer. Generally, he was pigheaded, a bit slow, and prone to all sorts of idiocy--in short, a very human character. Perhaps you're thinking of the Disnified character from their 'Hercules'?

I think that's why I preferred Norse mythology--Odin/Wotan may have been a vicious bastard, but he was clever. Plus, I rather liked Gaiman's characterization of him in American Gods.

Corwin · 07-12-2002, 10:21 AM

A good way to describe pagan gods in general is 'human, but more so.' Zeus was supposed to be a god, and extremely powerful. But he had the same personal failings as a lot of his followers. (Like his legendary skirt chasing...) This was just accepted. Why shouldn't a god have things in common with his creations? That having been said, he was still supposed to have been more than human. Problem with that is... his natrual failings were also more than human.

Ojuice5001 · 07-12-2002, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by daemon:
I just about choked on my coffee when I read this. "Likeable" is not really a word I would use to describe the traditional Jupiter/Zeus; a line of explitives would be closer. Generally, he was pigheaded, a bit slow, and prone to all sorts of idiocy--in short, a very human character. Perhaps you're thinking of the Disnified character from their 'Hercules'?

I think that's why I preferred Norse mythology--Odin/Wotan may have been a vicious bastard, but he was clever. Plus, I rather liked Gaiman's characterization of him in American Gods.

I haven't seen the Disney movie; it was more a combination of simple wishful thinking, and exaggeration of the difference between the Roman and Greek conceptions

.

If you want a modern portrayal of the gods that makes them neither better nor worse than that of the original myths, a good example is the Everworld series (by K.A. Applegate, creator of Animorphs). Zeus in his characterization there is pigheaded, but not too much so to listen to good advice from Athena and the main characters. The only god who I think was portrayed unfairly was Neptune.

[ July 12, 2002: Message edited by: Ojuice5001 ]

Ojuice5001 · 07-12-2002, 02:03 PM

double post

[ July 12, 2002: Message edited by: Ojuice5001 ]

daemon · 07-12-2002, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ojuice5001:
I haven't seen the Disney movie; it was more a combination of simple wishful thinking, and overemphasis of the difference between the Roman and Greek conceptions

Eh, you're not missing out on much as far as accuracy goes--Hercules had little to do with the legends other than the title character. Frankly, I would have loved an end note after the happy ending saying "Ten years later, Hera got really angry and caused Hercules to kill his family. Messily." But I'm a sadistic jerk.

Actually, it's a fun movie. I just wish they hadn't called it Hercules... ah well, c'est la vie.

Quote:

If you want a modern portrayal of the gods that is neither better nor worse than that of the original myths, a good example is the Everworld series (by K.A. Applegate, creator of Animorphs). Zeus in his characterization there is pigheaded, but not too much so to listen to good advice from Athena and the main characters. The only god who I think was portrayed unfairly was Neptune.

Sounds like Ms. Applegate was being a bit kinder to him that I would have been. I prefer Bullfinch, myself.

MzNeko · 07-12-2002, 04:21 PM

Well the Greek and Roman gods are fun, but how about bringing back some other pantheons, like the Egyptian one, for instance?

My small furry masters (I'm cat-owned) think that perhaps I should bring back Bast worship. Hey, at least there's a deity with whom I would have something to talk about.

07-11-2002, 05:24 PM	#12
Ojuice5001 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: A city in Florida that I love Posts: 3,416	Here's my best guess. Jesus was a sort of focus for the power of YHWH, a tool in his campaign to take over the world. So what was Mithra? My guess would be that he was an attempt by another god (probably from the Middle East pantheon) to do the same thing. Of course, this position seems odd if you think that Jesus was a historical individual and Mithra wasn't. But it's entirely possible that both were historical, or neither was. [ July 11, 2002: Message edited by: Ojuice5001 ]</p>

07-12-2002, 05:45 AM	#14
Eudaimonist Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Sundsvall, Sweden Posts: 3,159	Just make sure you don't include this guy in the tract. Unless he converts to paganism, of course. [ July 12, 2002: Message edited by: Eudaimonist ]</p>

07-12-2002, 02:03 PM	#18
Ojuice5001 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: A city in Florida that I love Posts: 3,416	double post [ July 12, 2002: Message edited by: Ojuice5001 ]</p>

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07-11-2002, 02:13 PM	#11
GunnerJ Banned Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: a place where i can list whatever location i want Posts: 4,871	Ojuice- one thing about your view of religious history is that you state that during the Roman Empire, the Mediterranian was Jupiter's domain. (This may have been on another thread.) But other cults were important in Roman life as well, such as those of Sol Invictus and Mithra, the later especially so for the Roman army. On that note, how do you account for Mithra? You say that the fall of Greco-Roman paganism represented a takeover by Jehovah, but were does Jesus fit in? Do you think that, given the similarities between Mithra and Jesus, that Mithra "switched teams" and betrayed the Roman pantheon to join up with the rising star of YHWH as Jesus? (Of course, I see all this "politics of the gods" as being fairy-tale BS, but it is interesting.)

07-12-2002, 10:21 AM	#16
Corwin Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 4,369	A good way to describe pagan gods in general is 'human, but more so.' Zeus was supposed to be a god, and extremely powerful. But he had the same personal failings as a lot of his followers. (Like his legendary skirt chasing...) This was just accepted. Why shouldn't a god have things in common with his creations? That having been said, he was still supposed to have been more than human. Problem with that is... his natrual failings were also more than human.

07-12-2002, 04:21 PM	#20
MzNeko Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Long Beach, California Posts: 1,127	Well the Greek and Roman gods are fun, but how about bringing back some other pantheons, like the Egyptian one, for instance? My small furry masters (I'm cat-owned) think that perhaps I should bring back Bast worship. Hey, at least there's a deity with whom I would have something to talk about.

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