Peter Kirby

Doherty writes: "Some of the savior gods had instituted sacraments: Mithras, after slaying the bull as a salvific blood sacrifice, had dined with the sun god, and this supper became the Mithraic cultic meal, similar to elements of the Christian Eucharist." (at http://pages.ca.inter.net/~oblio/parttwo.htm )

Where can I read the account of the institution of the supper by Mithras? (I know about Justin Martyr.)

best,
Peter Kirby

Toto

It's been a while since I read the book, but I see that in parts I-IV, there is one chapter entitled "The Mystery Cults", a little bit after the cite you gave.

Otherwise, Doherty bases his argument on Platonic thought, on Paul's letters, on early Christian writings, but not so much on pagan parallels.

Do you think that Paul was incapable of speaking in symbols, metaphor, or the like? Are we reading the same Paul?

I don't know of specific pagan parallels, but I haven't studied the matter, and I don't think that it is a central issue for Doherty.

If I were going to check for pagan parallels, I would go to Freke and Gandy's Jesus Mysteries. But the issue is not that pressing for me right now.

If you really want to know, why don't you ask him yourself?

His email addresses are oblio@ca.inter.net and EarlDoherty@hotmail.com

Bernard Muller

Just looking at 'Romans', we have:

Ro1:3 YLT "... concerning His Son, (who is come of the seed of David according to the flesh ..."

Ro8:3 "... God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh ..."

Ro9:4-5a "who are Israelites ... of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came ..."

Ro15:8 Darby "For I say that Jesus Christ became a minister of [the] circumcision [JEWS, my note] for [the] truth of God, to confirm the promises of the fathers;"

Jesus was Jewish and flesh & blood and dealt with Jews. And according to the OT, the descendants of David and Israelites lived on earth and not in heaven or mythicist-land. And Paul knew about the OT and Jews and Israelites.
Best regards, Bernard

PS: I understand Doherty did not address all items (appearing in Paul's 7 letters and 'Hebrews') implying a human Jesus, only a few. That transpired when I had some short but (super)heated debates with him on another list, which I think was 'Jesus mysteries'. Tomorrow, I'll come with the complete list & quotes.

Ted Hoffman

Dionysus' mother was Semele. Isis, Horus' mother resurrected Osiris her husband and these stories of godheads varied from region to region.

The Osiris-Dionysus story can be found with different godheads like Mithras (Persia), Attis (Asia Minor), Adonis (Syria), Bacchus (Italy), Jesus (Israel).

Many of these saviour figures had mothers and "led" human "lives" and "died", suffered and even resurrected to confer salvation to their "people". As to whether their lineages were familial or ethnic lineage, thats a quibble.

Doherty needs no support from anyone. His case is iron-clad. Those that need support are those that want to punch holes in it.

Layman

Thank you Toto. That's answers my question as far as you are concerned.

Layman

You are going to have to be little more specific. Which of these figures was a divine being who never was believed to have visited earth but who was described as being the descendent of a perceived historical figure who had been on earth?

Vorkosigan

Layman, first tell me how much of a parallel you will accept. I am not going to put up reams of parallels only to have you quibble that X is not a parallel because the ancestral god didn't begin with "D" or some similar nonsense. So let's have a clear definition of what you mean by parallel.

The objection you make above is invalid because that is not what Doherty is saying in the originally cite you provided. Doherty only notes that gods could have an ethnic lineage.

Vorkosigan

Layman

I'm looking for the kind of example Doherty says exist. One of those pagan myth gods that existed only in the spirit realm as Jesus was supposed to have done. And who never came to earth in any way. I'm looking for examples of adherents to those gods describing them as descendents of someone they believed to be an actual, earthly human being.

If you have examples that come close or fit some of my description, but you think supports the idea that this kind of phrase was used for eternal spirit beings who were not born, then I'd be open to reviewing them.

Why do you think Doherty insists there were pagan myth gods that were similarly described? Because the reference otherwise appears to be an affirmation of Jesus' humanity. Eternal spirit beings that have never been to earth in any form don't have parents, much less specific human ancestors.

So, whether Paul believed Jesus was born of a descendent of David because he read it in the OT scriputes, because a Christian told him that after he converted, or because he learned that while living in Jerusalem prior to his converson is irrelevant.

What truly "rescues" this passage for Doherty is that it is a reference to an eternal spirit being. But eternal spirit beings don't have human ancestors. Unless, of course, their believers somehow thought they did. Doherty claims they did so. He provides no examples. No one else has either.

Doctor X

Has Doherty responded to your e-mail?

--J.D.

Vorkosigan

Doherty argues that Jesus was created out of the OT, and Jesus given Davidic ancestry because that's what the Messiah was supposed to have. In other words, causation runs backward here. He then notes that "ethnic lineages" were common among gods. Like Paul, Doherty does not seem to want to clearly define these mysterious terms.

"Ethnic lineage" has been explained, Layman. That issue is settled. What would exactly would a parallel god invented and given human descent show? For your challege below....

...contains a misreading. Both the NT and Doherty insist that Jesus was active on earth in his spirit form. So the parallel you desire would not be a parallel to the NT.

Vorkosigan