Freethought & Rationalism Archive

ShottleBop · 06-11-2002, 10:55 AM

My aim was not to drown your point in detail, but to illustrate that (for Jews, at least), the 10 Commandments are hardly considered to be a complete statement of moral principles--a fact further illustrated by my earlier post, in which various Jewish prophets and sages are reported to have reduced the "indispensable" commandments to a smaller number: none of those lists of "indispensable" commandments refers to the 10 Commandments.

The 613 are the affirmative and negative commandments that Judaism long ago identified as being expressly stated in the Tanakh; as hinted at the end of my post, those laws, as well as oral laws, passed on for generations and ultimately recorded in the Mishnah (traditionally ascribed to Moses), have been developed into a far more comprehensive legal code over the centuries.

On pollution:

Many of the laws cited do have an environmental effect:

Quote:

With regard to the preservation of natural resources, the laws of shmitahand yovel, the sabbatical and jubilee years, provide important measures forpreventing erosion and exhaustion of the land. The laws of the Levite cities, which have become binding for all other Jewish cities, provide instructions for preserving green areas around the built-up areas. They deal with another key element of modern environmental concern: the allocation of space.

. . . I am not an halakhic expert. All I would like to do here is to provide a general overview of the halakhic attitudes towards the main environmental issues. As said, these halakhot are well developed in the classical Jewish sources. There is thus much more to be said on this subject than I canmanage in the short time available.

Protection of nature.
Let us start again with the main elements of environmental concern: firstly the protection of nature. The key halakhic prohibition here is bal tashhit,on which many regulations are based. The few Jewish authors who write about Judaism and the environment usually mention this as the foremost expression of Jewish law on environmental issues. The Torah forbids the wanton destruction of fruit trees in times of war. The Sifrei, written around 300 CE, extends the prohibition to include interference with water sources. One opinion in the Talmud extends this further still, to include an uneconomical use of fuel. Rambam mentions additional extensions of the bal tashhit principle,pointing out that it is relevant at all times, and not only in times of war. He also applies it to what is placed in the grave, stating that it is preferable to give clothes to the poor than to throw them to the worms. Whoever puts too many clothes on the dead, therefore, transgresses the law of baltashhit. . .

[From <a href="http://216.239.37.100/search?q=cache:f1G6kJvo2DcC:www.geocities.com/manfred_gerstenfeld/pdf/environmental_halacha_lecture_jct.pdf+Talmud+laws+ pollution&hl=en&ie=UTF8" target="_blank">here</a>

I'll try to follow up with additional material, later. (I originally responded to your post merely to illustrate that the 10 Commandments are not uniformly thought to be an ultimate expression of a moral code, not to try to establish that religious laws are "better" than secular laws. I believe very strongly in the separation of church and state, and I wouldn't WANT our laws to derive from purely religious sources.)

[ June 11, 2002: Message edited by: ShottleBop ]

Sojourner553 · 06-11-2002, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ShottleBop:
My aim was not to drown your point in detail, but to illustrate that (for Jews, at least), the 10 Commandments are hardly considered to be a complete statement of moral principles--a fact further illustrated by my earlier post, in which various Jewish prophets and sages are reported to have reduced the "indispensable" commandments to a smaller number: none of those lists of "indispensable" commandments refers to the 10 Commandments.

[ June 11, 2002: Message edited by: ShottleBop ]

I have always had great respect for Judaism. And yes you are right that it is not the Jews who are touting that posting the Ten Commandments is the solution to the world's morality!

But that is my point too: My post was really targeted towards conservative Christians who do not have a tradition of commentary that "interprets" the laws, but instead narrowly interprets them along literal lines.

Therefore you are taking me down a path I have no desire to pursue (as my comments were never targeted towards Jews to begin with.) As you stated: It is not Jews who are arguing that the Ten Commandments are a complete/comprehensive set of moral laws! Nor was it the Jews who fought modern humane laws against torture, child abuse, and slavery!

Take care!

Sojourner

King Arthur · 06-11-2002, 04:26 PM

Oh common, you don't want to tackle Judaism?! We could go from the TaNakH to the Mishnah to the Babylonian and Jerusalem Talmuds to the... What fun! It's no wonder we leave Judaism alone and jump on Christians!! Sooooo much easier...

[ June 11, 2002: Message edited by: King Arthur ]

ShottleBop · 06-11-2002, 05:12 PM

Quote:

But that is my point too: My post was really targeted towards conservative Christians who do not have a tradition of commentary that "interprets" the laws, but instead narrowly interprets them along literal lines.

OK, I'll shut up!

Jayhawker Soule · 06-11-2002, 05:24 PM

I wonder how much of the Judaic response is after the fact. George E. Mendenhall, in "Ancient Israel's Faith an history - An Introduction to the Bible in Context", points out:

Quote:

Numbers 11:4 notes that Moses brought with him out of Egypt 'asaf-suf, a pejorative meaning "mixed rabble". Similarly, Exodus 12:38 mentions the 'ereb-rab, or "mixed crowd" of people, who left Egypt with Moses.

He then goes on to suggest:

Quote:

The Decalogue thus provides not a proscription against bad conduct but a description of a religious value system, in this case, the ethical obligations and personal commitments that provide the foundation of any and all human communities.

Mendenhall views the Decalogue as a set of commitments used to adhere an ethnically mixed community lacking a common tradition. As such, in both form an intent, they are far more similar to our typically brief marriage vows than to a comprehensive civil code.

ShottleBop · 06-11-2002, 07:08 PM

Quote:

I wonder how much of the Judaic response is after the fact.

I'd venture that pretty much all of the response would have been after the fact. (Could it be any other way?)

dimossi · 06-13-2002, 11:41 AM

I prefer these commandments:

New and Improved Ten Commandments:

1. We shall not limit freedom of thought.
2. We shall not cause unnecessary harm to any living thing or the environment.
3. We shall be respectful of the rights of others.
4. We shall be honest.
5. We shall be responsible for our actions.
6. We shall be fair in all matters to all persons.
7. We shall be considerate of the happiness and well being of others.
8. We shall be reasonable in our actions.
9. We shall nurture these values by word & deed in our children, family, friends, and acquaintances.
10. We shall not limit inquiring or testing by their consequences, on any matter, including these
commandments.

Ten Commandments of Solon (Diogenes Laertius, Lives of Eminent Philosophers, 1.60),:

1. Trust good character more than promises.
2. Do not speak falsely.
3. Do good things.
4. Do not be hasty in making friends, but do not abandon them once made.
5. Learn to obey before you command.
6. When giving advice, do not recommend what is most pleasing, but what is most useful.
7. Make reason your supreme commander.
8. Do not associate with people who do bad things.
9. Honor the gods.
10. Have regard for your parents.

---

BTW - How did Christianity arrive at only 10 commandments when there are <a href="http://members.ozemail.com.au/~adamgosp/otcomm.htm" target="_blank">613</a> commandments and laws according to Judaism and the OT?

[ June 13, 2002: Message edited by: dimossi ]

06-11-2002, 04:26 PM	#43
King Arthur Banned Join Date: May 2002 Location: Camelot Posts: 290	Oh common, you don't want to tackle Judaism?! We could go from the TaNakH to the Mishnah to the Babylonian and Jerusalem Talmuds to the... What fun! It's no wonder we leave Judaism alone and jump on Christians!! Sooooo much easier... [ June 11, 2002: Message edited by: King Arthur ]</p>

06-13-2002, 11:41 AM	#47
dimossi Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Sarasota, FL Posts: 243	I prefer these commandments: New and Improved Ten Commandments: 1. We shall not limit freedom of thought. 2. We shall not cause unnecessary harm to any living thing or the environment. 3. We shall be respectful of the rights of others. 4. We shall be honest. 5. We shall be responsible for our actions. 6. We shall be fair in all matters to all persons. 7. We shall be considerate of the happiness and well being of others. 8. We shall be reasonable in our actions. 9. We shall nurture these values by word & deed in our children, family, friends, and acquaintances. 10. We shall not limit inquiring or testing by their consequences, on any matter, including these commandments. Ten Commandments of Solon (Diogenes Laertius, Lives of Eminent Philosophers, 1.60),: 1. Trust good character more than promises. 2. Do not speak falsely. 3. Do good things. 4. Do not be hasty in making friends, but do not abandon them once made. 5. Learn to obey before you command. 6. When giving advice, do not recommend what is most pleasing, but what is most useful. 7. Make reason your supreme commander. 8. Do not associate with people who do bad things. 9. Honor the gods. 10. Have regard for your parents. --- BTW - How did Christianity arrive at only 10 commandments when there are <a href="http://members.ozemail.com.au/~adamgosp/otcomm.htm" target="_blank">613</a> commandments and laws according to Judaism and the OT? [ June 13, 2002: Message edited by: dimossi ]</p>

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