Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Jat · 06-19-2003, 02:56 AM

Originally posted by Dr Rick

Did you?

I did say that I had questioned the number of adherents because of their sources. They tend to pad their numbers somewhat to make it look like there are more of them than there really are. In the case of Christianity they are mostly likely counting persons, lilke me, who were born into Christian homes but aren't actually Christians themself as adults. As well as counting peoples in third world nations which Missionaries claim to have converted for food and medical aid in exchange for saying that they accepted Christ.

By my estimates there should only be around 1.7 billion to 1.8 billion Christians in the would now and not over 2 billion (some are even claiming 2.1 billion). I had done the research by going over several different reference books and the like from a 20 year period around 5 or 6 years ago and the numbers didn't add up to what they are claiming today. The rate didn't allow for that big an increase in that short of a period of time.

It took them nearly 2000 years to reach 1 billion people (during which Christianity was at it greatest influence and power) and to double it in 20 years during which it was at its least influence and power while at the same time Islam was and is in a rapid growth period. Something isn't Kosher here. If they were growing at the rate which was claim then if they were around 2 billion 5 or 6 years ago it should stand to reason that they should be around 2.5 to 3 billion by now instead of still being around 2 billion as claimed?

meritocrat · 06-19-2003, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Laci
We have Christian right groups here in the USA who might treat women badly. But these groups remain small in comparison to the Islamic religion. The women are totally protected under the law if their husbands should abuse them here in the USA. And the women has the right to get up and leave whenever she wants. However, not so in other countries under Islamic Law.

So why is it acceptable to push your Western ethics in this situation?

Quote:

And Islamism is growing. Unfortunately these extremists abuse women because they follow their religous book religiously.
Don't forget these books were not written by Allah but by MEN who figured out ways to keep women subserviant to them. Covering their faces wards off other men to flirt with their women. That's how inferior the men are.

Extremists are a minority in Islam. It is not the only religion to possess a fundamentalist element.

Quote:

These MEN who wrote all these words to live by have very small egos and just want to totally control women. I think that's the bottom line in the Islamic religion. These men are overly emotional and alot mentally sick hence they keep their women under tight restrictions. And there are alot of Islamic men in other countries not working and hanging around the streets and who are dwelling on these ridiculous religious books which were written a long, long time ago.

I always assumed egocentricity was a negative quality, not a virtue. Wasn't the Bible 'written by men'? A Muslim would tell you that the Koran lacks the discrepencies of the Bible.

Quote:

The new Islams use their religious book to maintain peace betwen themselves and their God and the outside world. Quite a difference from the extremists!

by the way Mohammad had about 6 wives himself.

To re-iterate, extremists are a minority. How is the Prophet Muhammed's marriages of consequence here?

lpetrich · 06-19-2003, 05:49 PM

But if other Muslims are not willing to challenge their extremists, then one has to wonder about whose side they are really on.

And the same can be said of other religions/ideologies/movements.

hinduwoman · 06-19-2003, 06:34 PM

Kuu, the target is not you.
But very often in seminars and forums --- and apparently in Western educational texts (this is hearsay of course) --- this subject is brought up as proof of evil in Hinduism wihtout comparisons.
All it does is to make Hindus feel more beseiged and angry.

hinduwoman · 06-19-2003, 06:43 PM

Muhammad is considered to be the perfect man whom all muslims must emulate; no criticism is allowed and that is the problem.

For example in one case a father married off his 9 year old daughter to a 50 year old; under Islamic law this cannot be challenged because Muhammad consumnated his marriage with Ayesha when she was 9.
Muhamad took concubines and wives from captives of war after killing their family. This makes it acceptable to keep slaves and use them.

Even moderate muslims do not criticize Muhammad; unless they do so how can Muslim societies progress?

echidna · 06-19-2003, 07:52 PM

From Egypt ...

Quote:

Second marriage no longer tolerated by first wives
Compiled by Mohssen Arishie

A recent survey of criminal courts, police stations and prosecution offices in several of Egypt's governorates arrived at an alarming conclusion: the number of murder cases, in which the prime suspect is the first wife and the victim the second wife of the same man, is on the increase. The humiliation of the first wife is clearly manifested in the famous film, The Second Wife, starring late actress Souad Hosni and the late Shoukri Sarhan, which held cinema-goers spellbound in the mid-1960s. Although the movie had political overtones, it was the plight of the leading actor's wife that moved audiences the length and breadth of Egypt to floods of tears.

The suspects blame their husbands for everything, claiming that what impels them to get rid of wife number two is the fact that their menfolk always give her preferential treatment. One housewife, identified as Fawziya Aboud, sorrowfully says that she was 'filled with the bitterest hatred' when her husband told her one day that he was going to get remarried. "He refused to divorce me, promising me that the second wife would work as my servant round the house. Eventually I gave my consent for her to come and live with us, only to discover that she was the new lady of the house and everyone else had to bow down and obey her."

http://www.algomhuria.net.eg/gazette/m4/1.asp

Quote:

Another tragic case, highlighted by the researchers who conducted the study, involved a girl of 14 who got married to her cousin who already had four children. The suspect, the first wife, told researchers: "My husband and I were living quite happily together with our four little children in Shoubra. One day, my husband decided to visit his family in an Upper Egyptian village." To her surprise, the husband did not return empty-handed: he came back to the family flat in Shoubra one night, a few days later, arm in arm with his pretty young cousin. He told his first wife that he and his latest wife were very tired after the train journey and wanted to go straight to bed. "It was extremely humiliating, like a kick in the face. My husband had the cheek to marry a child without even telling me," the suspect, Fareeda Awad, 35, said.
She described how her husband left her bed to go and sleep with his cousin in the bedroom shared by their two elder children, who had to sleep with mum instead. The children, she claimed, were also incredibly upset, especially when their father ordered them to bring him and his wife their supper in the bedroom. "My children complained several times that the girl [the second wife] was very arrogant," the first wife added. "She didn't sit up in bed or otherwise acknowledge my children whenever they entered the room with a tray of food. My husband used to kiss her very affectionately in front of my children, knowing full well that they'd come and tell me everything."

hinduwoman · 06-23-2003, 07:37 PM

yep, they find it very humiliating, particularly when they comapre themselves with other communities.

http://www.secularislam.org/women/bitter.htm

Quote:

Please, Allah, leave us alone to cry and weep in peace. From behind the veil, beyond public gaze we want to cry till we cannot cry any more. This is the only right you have left to us Muslim women, throughout the Islamic world, where your laws are meticulously followed
�Syed Mustafa Siraj was at least honest when he said that the Hindus can fearlessly write on the injustices and other inadequacies of their social system, but we, the Muslims, are afraid to criticize the defects of the Islamic society
� Our political leaders are exactly like those eunuchs. These leaders talk in high-sounding, noble words such as �freedom�, �non-discrimination�, �secularism� and many other beautiful words. But alas, they do not have the means to apply a single such word to the day-to-day life of our Muslim society.
� What an unbearable existence for us to live and survive among co-wives! Innumerable children, unhealthy surroundings, poverty and lack of education have made a mockery of our social lives. Even goats and cows live better than us. The frequent fights among the co-wives, the pulling at one another�s hair are so degrading! And then, God forbicl, if the miyan or husband gets into the fray, then we get beaten like a beast until we cannot take it anymore. And after the beating, to make it even more degrading, the miyan takes his other wife into the bedroom and shuts the door into our face.
� Such is our life, Allah! Who should we go to with our sorrows and complaints? If we rebel, then we are physically beaten and punished in accordance with the laws laid down by you. If we complain, then we are accused of being hypocrites or �munafiq�.
� Islam means peace. To watch silently the persecution of women is perhaps this peace

Makes me very angry with the NGOs in our country. The leaders of Women's organization explain that they cannot fight for Muslim women's plight because that would give fuel to the Hindu fundamentalists' accusation that Islam treats women badly. Yeah, their political correctness keeps Hindus thinking that Islam treats women nicely.

0n0w1c · 06-23-2003, 09:14 PM

do you ever consider, that it is people that are harmful to one another? it is not islam, hindu, christianity, societies nor governments. people have thoughts, people act, people are responsible. many posters seem to act as if they had no part in it... face the facts... we are all responsible for the horrors. we are responsible for either allowing, fostering, ignoring, tollerating or conducting the acts.

"if you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem".

i ask... what are you going to do about it?
post concerns on infidels? do you think the people being harmed feel your concern or read your posts?

signed: alterboy to the church of the painful truth

conkermaniac · 06-23-2003, 11:34 PM

I believe that Islam is a backwards religion, and that it should be criticized for its negative portrayal of women and homosexuals. At the same time, I believe that Christianity is an equally backwards religion and that most conservative Christian men in the West would seize the opportunity to abuse their wives if given such an opportunity. As Christianity continues to die out in the West, however, we find that less and less jury members are Christians, and as a result, such crimes against women do not go unpunished. This certainly is not true in Islam. In most cases, juries and judges are appointed by the goverment (which is usually conservative). Secondly, these juries are almost always all-male and all-Muslim. Since Islam does not forbid such behavior (and since men cannot envision themselves in the woman's position), the likelihood of the woman losing her case is unbelievably great. This is unfortunate indeed.

I honestly believe that many Christians would throw acid on their wife, if given the opportunity. But honestly, how many of us have extremely strong acids lying around the house? Some of us might have vinegar, but I think most Christians find it easier to beat their wife with a dictionary or a chair instead.

Vorkosigan · 06-23-2003, 11:43 PM

Quote:

I honestly believe that many Christians would throw acid on their wife, if given the opportunity. But honestly, how many of us have extremely strong acids lying around the house? Some of us might have vinegar, but I think most Christians find it easier to beat their wife with a dictionary or a chair instead.

Most Christians would not throw acid on their wives, any more than anyone else would. Christianity may be brutal, but Christians are not. Let's not go overboard here.

Vorkosigan

06-23-2003, 09:14 PM	#128
0n0w1c Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: usa Posts: 68	ever consider do you ever consider, that it is people that are harmful to one another? it is not islam, hindu, christianity, societies nor governments. people have thoughts, people act, people are responsible. many posters seem to act as if they had no part in it... face the facts... we are all responsible for the horrors. we are responsible for either allowing, fostering, ignoring, tollerating or conducting the acts. "if you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem". i ask... what are you going to do about it? post concerns on infidels? do you think the people being harmed feel your concern or read your posts? signed: alterboy to the church of the painful truth

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06-19-2003, 02:56 AM	#121
Jat Banned Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Canada Posts: 1,311	Originally posted by Dr Rick Did you? I did say that I had questioned the number of adherents because of their sources. They tend to pad their numbers somewhat to make it look like there are more of them than there really are. In the case of Christianity they are mostly likely counting persons, lilke me, who were born into Christian homes but aren't actually Christians themself as adults. As well as counting peoples in third world nations which Missionaries claim to have converted for food and medical aid in exchange for saying that they accepted Christ. By my estimates there should only be around 1.7 billion to 1.8 billion Christians in the would now and not over 2 billion (some are even claiming 2.1 billion). I had done the research by going over several different reference books and the like from a 20 year period around 5 or 6 years ago and the numbers didn't add up to what they are claiming today. The rate didn't allow for that big an increase in that short of a period of time. It took them nearly 2000 years to reach 1 billion people (during which Christianity was at it greatest influence and power) and to double it in 20 years during which it was at its least influence and power while at the same time Islam was and is in a rapid growth period. Something isn't Kosher here. If they were growing at the rate which was claim then if they were around 2 billion 5 or 6 years ago it should stand to reason that they should be around 2.5 to 3 billion by now instead of still being around 2 billion as claimed?

06-19-2003, 05:49 PM	#123
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	But if other Muslims are not willing to challenge their extremists, then one has to wonder about whose side they are really on. And the same can be said of other religions/ideologies/movements.

06-19-2003, 06:34 PM	#124
hinduwoman Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: India Posts: 6,977	Kuu, the target is not you. But very often in seminars and forums --- and apparently in Western educational texts (this is hearsay of course) --- this subject is brought up as proof of evil in Hinduism wihtout comparisons. All it does is to make Hindus feel more beseiged and angry.

06-19-2003, 06:43 PM	#125
hinduwoman Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: India Posts: 6,977	Muhammad is considered to be the perfect man whom all muslims must emulate; no criticism is allowed and that is the problem. For example in one case a father married off his 9 year old daughter to a 50 year old; under Islamic law this cannot be challenged because Muhammad consumnated his marriage with Ayesha when she was 9. Muhamad took concubines and wives from captives of war after killing their family. This makes it acceptable to keep slaves and use them. Even moderate muslims do not criticize Muhammad; unless they do so how can Muslim societies progress?

06-23-2003, 11:34 PM	#129
conkermaniac Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: American in China Posts: 620	I believe that Islam is a backwards religion, and that it should be criticized for its negative portrayal of women and homosexuals. At the same time, I believe that Christianity is an equally backwards religion and that most conservative Christian men in the West would seize the opportunity to abuse their wives if given such an opportunity. As Christianity continues to die out in the West, however, we find that less and less jury members are Christians, and as a result, such crimes against women do not go unpunished. This certainly is not true in Islam. In most cases, juries and judges are appointed by the goverment (which is usually conservative). Secondly, these juries are almost always all-male and all-Muslim. Since Islam does not forbid such behavior (and since men cannot envision themselves in the woman's position), the likelihood of the woman losing her case is unbelievably great. This is unfortunate indeed. I honestly believe that many Christians would throw acid on their wife, if given the opportunity. But honestly, how many of us have extremely strong acids lying around the house? Some of us might have vinegar, but I think most Christians find it easier to beat their wife with a dictionary or a chair instead.

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