Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Nat · 10-23-2002, 12:02 PM

Actually, the book Contact has a far more blatant deistic reference in it than the movie. In the book, the aliens suggest that the human travelers (in the book eight people went along in the little cosmic joy-ride) tkae a look at pi for a message from the Universe itself. At the end of the book they find that pi forms a perfect circle in base 12 when carried out to a few trillion decimals.

This all being said, it seems that deism (some forms) and pantheism are little different from atheism in the final analysis. Sagan seemed to be attributing a kind of magical mystery to the Universe itself - something that Einstein seem to do as well. This certainly doesn't mean that he believes there's some sort of antropomophic god-entity creating Universes.

Cheers

Keith Russell · 10-23-2002, 01:07 PM

Yeah, more of that Arthur C. Clarke-style sci-fi mysticism, which I can live without...

Keith.

Mageth · 10-23-2002, 01:19 PM

"I remain inexorably opposed to any kind of revealed religion and reject any talk of a personal god," said Sagan, while posing for news crews with clergy on the cathedral steps. "But millions of people believe in a god that is not that kind of god." Using the classic image of a divine watchmaker, he added: "Some might say, for example, that there is some kind of force or power in the watch -- a set of laws, perhaps. Then the watch creates itself. I'm more comfortable with that kind of language."

That statement sounds more pantheistic than deistic.

Amen-Moses · 10-23-2002, 01:38 PM

Personally I lump deists in with atheists, i.e they don't believe in a deity that fucks with us.

Amen-Moses (pissed and still drinking)

Jobar · 10-23-2002, 05:55 PM

The difference between deism and pantheism is that deists posit a personal God- but he is entirely apart from the universe he created, and takes no part in its unfolding.

Pantheists equate God and the universe.

I think that Sagan might once called himself a 'naturalistic pantheist'- I won't swear to it, but I think it may be somewhere in his book "Billions and Billions".

Logic Execution · 10-23-2002, 08:47 PM

Thank you all for your replies. They are greatly appreciated.

bluefugue · 10-24-2002, 04:35 AM

Carl Sagan might have been more comfortable with talking about a deistic god or pantheistic universe, but did he ever state outright that he believed in one? From my own sense reading DHW and Broca's Brain, I rather got the sense that he would probably strictly be called an agnostic. I can't think of any quotes offhand to back this up, though.

southernhybrid · 10-24-2002, 08:59 AM

I've read many of Sagan's books and I got the impression that he was an agnostic deist or philosophically a pantheist. I think he was probably an atheist intellectually but had a hard time completely giving up the notion of some kind of higher power or spiritual connection in the universe. Of course that's just my impression. He never clearly states exactly what he believes in anything I've read. Does it really matter?

10-24-2002, 04:01 PM

<a href="http://atheism.about.com/library/quotes/bl_q_CSagan.htm" target="_blank">Carl Sagan on religion</a>

10-24-2002, 06:20 PM

In the end it does not matter what Sagan called himself because the potential to "realize" that he was God was within Sagan. So he just died without realizing that he was God.

If the above possibility does not exist all religions are wrong because that is always their main theme and the end of their purpose. From this follows that it does not matter much if you die as a believer or as a doubter because neither will have consolidated their life in the understanding of their own life.

[ October 24, 2002: Message edited by: Amos ]</p>

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10-23-2002, 12:02 PM	#11
Nat Regular Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: USA Posts: 100	Actually, the book Contact has a far more blatant deistic reference in it than the movie. In the book, the aliens suggest that the human travelers (in the book eight people went along in the little cosmic joy-ride) tkae a look at pi for a message from the Universe itself. At the end of the book they find that pi forms a perfect circle in base 12 when carried out to a few trillion decimals. This all being said, it seems that deism (some forms) and pantheism are little different from atheism in the final analysis. Sagan seemed to be attributing a kind of magical mystery to the Universe itself - something that Einstein seem to do as well. This certainly doesn't mean that he believes there's some sort of antropomophic god-entity creating Universes. Cheers

10-23-2002, 01:07 PM	#12
Keith Russell Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Overland Park, Kansas Posts: 1,336	Yeah, more of that Arthur C. Clarke-style sci-fi mysticism, which I can live without... Keith.

10-23-2002, 01:19 PM	#13
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	"I remain inexorably opposed to any kind of revealed religion and reject any talk of a personal god," said Sagan, while posing for news crews with clergy on the cathedral steps. "But millions of people believe in a god that is not that kind of god." Using the classic image of a divine watchmaker, he added: "Some might say, for example, that there is some kind of force or power in the watch -- a set of laws, perhaps. Then the watch creates itself. I'm more comfortable with that kind of language." That statement sounds more pantheistic than deistic.

10-23-2002, 01:38 PM	#14
Amen-Moses Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Portsmouth, England Posts: 4,652	Personally I lump deists in with atheists, i.e they don't believe in a deity that fucks with us. Amen-Moses (pissed and still drinking)

10-23-2002, 05:55 PM	#15
Jobar Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: secularcafe.org Posts: 9,525	The difference between deism and pantheism is that deists posit a personal God- but he is entirely apart from the universe he created, and takes no part in its unfolding. Pantheists equate God and the universe. I think that Sagan might once called himself a 'naturalistic pantheist'- I won't swear to it, but I think it may be somewhere in his book "Billions and Billions".

10-23-2002, 08:47 PM	#16
Logic Execution Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Northeastern United States Posts: 6	Thank you all for your replies. They are greatly appreciated.

10-24-2002, 04:35 AM	#17
bluefugue Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 1,427	Carl Sagan might have been more comfortable with talking about a deistic god or pantheistic universe, but did he ever state outright that he believed in one? From my own sense reading DHW and Broca's Brain, I rather got the sense that he would probably strictly be called an agnostic. I can't think of any quotes offhand to back this up, though.

10-24-2002, 08:59 AM	#18
southernhybrid Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: heavenly Georgia Posts: 3,862	I've read many of Sagan's books and I got the impression that he was an agnostic deist or philosophically a pantheist. I think he was probably an atheist intellectually but had a hard time completely giving up the notion of some kind of higher power or spiritual connection in the universe. Of course that's just my impression. He never clearly states exactly what he believes in anything I've read. Does it really matter?

10-24-2002, 04:01 PM	#19
atheist_in_foxhole Guest Posts: n/a	<a href="http://atheism.about.com/library/quotes/bl_q_CSagan.htm" target="_blank">Carl Sagan on religion</a>

10-24-2002, 06:20 PM	#20
Amos Guest Posts: n/a	In the end it does not matter what Sagan called himself because the potential to "realize" that he was God was within Sagan. So he just died without realizing that he was God. If the above possibility does not exist all religions are wrong because that is always their main theme and the end of their purpose. From this follows that it does not matter much if you die as a believer or as a doubter because neither will have consolidated their life in the understanding of their own life. [ October 24, 2002: Message edited by: Amos ]</p>

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