Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Biff the unclean · 11-12-2002, 02:21 PM

There was a show on cable last night hosted by William B. Davis-the X-files cigarette man. It was on skepticism and part dealt with this very topic. That belief/attitude affected "revelation."
In this case it was big foot and the Loch Ness monster. Believers were able to spot them but not unbelievers. Unbelievers would see shadows in the trees or schools of fish on the sonar while the believers swore up and down that they saw monsters.
When these claims were studied nothing was ever found. They don't exist.
They have been looking in Loch Ness for over seventy five years. High tech sonar, even TV cameras strapped to dolphins have been used. There's nothing there.
Belief can make believers think they are seeing Gods and monsters. But it cannot make actual creatures disappear-if you don't believe me try not believing in them the next time ants get into your kitchen.
What you are doing is lowering God to the level of Nessy. Congratulations.

sourdough · 11-12-2002, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas:
Gang,

I had a quick question I wanted to get the atheists perspective on...

What if ones revelation of God is dependent upon their attitude toward God?

Thoughts and comments welcomed,

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

could you define God plz!

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas · 11-12-2002, 04:15 PM

K,

Quote:

Originally posted by K:
SOMMS:
Since it has been shown that personal revelation with the "right" attitude has been used by many different people as proof for countless absurd and conflicting beliefs, would you agree that it should be disregarded as worthless evidence? If not, why not?

I think we are approaching this from two different directions.

You pose a question concerning the integrity of personal accounts. Essentially you are saying 'There are crazy people out there who believe crazy things...how am I to discern what is crazy from what is not?'

I am simply stating something that must necessarily be true (or at least very likely to be true) about God if God existed.

Completely regardless of the fact that crazy people believe crazy things the above must be true about the Judeo-Christian God...if the Judeo-Christain God exists.

Now about 'how would I discern what is crazy from what is not'...simply use your head. This isn't rocket science. You can tell if a person is crazy.

However, there is a way to completely and utterly remove the personal experiences of other people (who could possibly be crazy) out of the picture.

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

K · 11-12-2002, 07:46 PM

SOMMS:

Quote:

I am simply stating something that must necessarily be true (or at least very likely to be true) about God if God existed.

But the same exact thing could be said about any supernatural claim out there. That makes this claim of absolutely zero value. I could say, "if Never-Never Land existed, it wouldn't show up under aerial photography except to those who believe it's there." That wouldn't have any bearing on the actual existence of Never-Never Land.

Quote:

Now about 'how would I discern what is crazy from what is not'...simply use your head. This isn't rocket science. You can tell if a person is crazy.

I think this is the crux of the problem. You must believe that I, and others here, find that Bible is somehow more plausible than the Heaven's Gate teachings. I don't. Both stories sound equally ridiculous to me. Unlike you, I don't believe the Heaven's Gate member was any more crazy than the average Bible-believing Christian. I just think that they both have a difficult time separating fact from fiction.

ELECTROGOD · 11-12-2002, 08:01 PM

Biff the unclean wrote:

Quote:

I am always astonished that while Theists are unable to prove that God exists and don't claim to have even seen God they have no trouble at all ascribing attributes to It.
How the hell do you know if God is lifeless or not, animate or in, is or is not an object?

Douglas J. Bender does a great lounge act in these forums of ascribing attributes, thoughts, actions, ideas, etc. to "god".

NFLP · 11-13-2002, 04:12 AM

SOMMS,

God tells me that the Bible is the work of mythmakers and liars. What is your God's attitude regarding the Bible?

Dr. Retard · 11-13-2002, 04:53 AM

Quote:

'I don't know if God exists or not, but if he does...I want a relationship with him.'

I'm not trying to play devil's advocate here (hyuck, hyuck), but this attitude seems fine with me. Maybe I'm misunderstanding it. Here's what true of me, personally:

Regarding the God of theistic philosophy, I think the likelihood of its existence is very, very low. Of course, I don't know one way or the other, but that's philosophically uninteresting. If such a God were to exist, I would want a relationship with it.

What's so crazy about that?

Biff the unclean · 11-13-2002, 07:36 AM

If such a God were to exist, I would want a relationship with it.
What's so crazy about that?
Well, I'm not a psychiatrist, but I do live in California. That qualifies me to know "crazy" when I see it.
By relationship we aren't talking about SOMMS and God getting together after work and knocking back a couple of cold ones. They don't chip in together to rent a summer place out on the island.
What we are talking about by the term "relationship" is SOMMS having an emotional upheaval over something that exists solely in his imagination, that no one else can detect, and that SOMMS is unable to distinguish from reality. Not only can't he distinguish it from reality he thinks that there is something lacking in those who don't share this dilution.
Schizophrenia is the name of illness that this "relationship" is a symptom of. There's probably a delusion or two of grandeur mixed in with it too, but as I said I'm no psychiatrist.

Asha'man · 11-13-2002, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas:
If God exists THEN ones revelation of him is affected by ones attitude towards him.

Conversely, IF God does not exist, THEN the there will be no (non-delusional) revelations, regardless of attitude.

From my personal experience, you have just offered proof that God does not exist, and that your psersonal revelation must be delusional.

Thanks.

MadMez · 11-13-2002, 09:07 AM

Hello SOMMS,

I'm not sure I understand the original question. Sorry. My first post though, so I might get better.

"What if ones revelation of God is dependent upon their attitude toward God?"

How can one have an attitude toward something I don't know exists? If your God exists and your God commanded me to kill my first-born, for example, my attitude might be different to it then if it granted me a princedom. Depending on the princedom, I guess. Does that answer your question for this atheist?

As one unconvinced as to any deity's existence then surely the only attitude one can have is towards it's followers? I'd say I was as unlikely to get a revelation one way or the other, based on my attitude towards any theist I've met so far. Clear enough?

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

11-12-2002, 02:21 PM	#261
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	There was a show on cable last night hosted by William B. Davis-the X-files cigarette man. It was on skepticism and part dealt with this very topic. That belief/attitude affected "revelation." In this case it was big foot and the Loch Ness monster. Believers were able to spot them but not unbelievers. Unbelievers would see shadows in the trees or schools of fish on the sonar while the believers swore up and down that they saw monsters. When these claims were studied nothing was ever found. They don't exist. They have been looking in Loch Ness for over seventy five years. High tech sonar, even TV cameras strapped to dolphins have been used. There's nothing there. Belief can make believers think they are seeing Gods and monsters. But it cannot make actual creatures disappear-if you don't believe me try not believing in them the next time ants get into your kitchen. What you are doing is lowering God to the level of Nessy. Congratulations.

11-13-2002, 04:12 AM	#266
NFLP Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Southeast Posts: 150	SOMMS, God tells me that the Bible is the work of mythmakers and liars. What is your God's attitude regarding the Bible?

11-13-2002, 07:36 AM	#268
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	If such a God were to exist, I would want a relationship with it. What's so crazy about that? Well, I'm not a psychiatrist, but I do live in California. That qualifies me to know "crazy" when I see it. By relationship we aren't talking about SOMMS and God getting together after work and knocking back a couple of cold ones. They don't chip in together to rent a summer place out on the island. What we are talking about by the term "relationship" is SOMMS having an emotional upheaval over something that exists solely in his imagination, that no one else can detect, and that SOMMS is unable to distinguish from reality. Not only can't he distinguish it from reality he thinks that there is something lacking in those who don't share this dilution. Schizophrenia is the name of illness that this "relationship" is a symptom of. There's probably a delusion or two of grandeur mixed in with it too, but as I said I'm no psychiatrist.

11-13-2002, 09:07 AM	#270
MadMez Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Bend, OR, USA Posts: 360	Hello SOMMS, I'm not sure I understand the original question. Sorry. My first post though, so I might get better. "What if ones revelation of God is dependent upon their attitude toward God?" How can one have an attitude toward something I don't know exists? If your God exists and your God commanded me to kill my first-born, for example, my attitude might be different to it then if it granted me a princedom. Depending on the princedom, I guess. Does that answer your question for this atheist? As one unconvinced as to any deity's existence then surely the only attitude one can have is towards it's followers? I'd say I was as unlikely to get a revelation one way or the other, based on my attitude towards any theist I've met so far. Clear enough?

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.