hinduwoman

This was raised by a Hindu in an article.

He points out that in Christianity God is someone to be feared, and not loved. Therefore, a good christian is always called God-fearing.
It is a point. There is no phrase "god-loving".
Any apologetics for this?

Amos

Hello Hinduwoman, let me present you with some facts to ponder. In Christendom "God is love" and "Lord God is life." From this follows that since we are alive, we are Lord God and our life is sustained by God. From this follows that it is absurd to fear God and call ourselves Christian.

If we are not a Christian but a believer in God it is possible that we fear God because he either does not sustain our life adequatly--such as when our days are filled with doom and gloom--, or, perhaps God may bless us too much and we "fall into the hands of the living God"--as some preachers would put it. When this happens we will be torn between good and evil because the gift of discernment seems to be hypercativated as part of this "fall" (notice our second "fall" here ). What seems to be most fearfull about this second fall is that most so called Christians never seem to rise above this entrapment for which they have surrendered their integrity.

Sue Sponte

If there were some facts, I would consider pondering them. But what follows is supposition and conjecture, not facts.

As for the remainder, it made my head hurt trying to understand how you reached the conclusions from the predicates. I've solved the riddle by merely substituting "it does not follow" for the word "follow". It's meaningless prattle with these changes, but at least I can make some sense of it.

Regardless of any individual explanation, Hinduwoman's point is well taken. The phrase "god fearing" is certainly used more frequently than "god loving" by Christians, and for good reason.

hezekiah jones

Originally posted by Sue Sponte
I've solved the riddle by merely substituting "it does not follow" for the word "follow". It's meaningless prattle with these changes, but at least I can make some sense of it.

LOL. Welcome to Amosville, Population 1.

(Great handle, btw, assuming you came up with it of your own accord.)

Irishbrutha

1) Explain why it's a bad thing to fear (actually closer to the concept of "fearing God" is that of holding Him in awe in Christianity).
2) Explain how a God worth fearing is secondrate. After all if he's what Christians believe He is, Omnipotent (which is the reason we claim he is worthy of our submission, btw), He's probably deserving of that kind of esteem/respect/awe/fear that only a firstrate God would.
3) Explain to us whom exactly it is that refers to good christians as "god-fearing" to the exclusion of all other descriptions.
a) sub-point - explain why we should accept your premise that the use of "god-fearing" as a mark of excellence in Christianity excludes any other criteria for a standard of excellence among Christians.
b) sub-point - explain why you came to the conclusion that this phrase specifically excludes the idea of loving God. This is the proposition you'd have the most difficulty defending. The First Commandment, that which all other commands are merely supplemental to, is to "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, and strength". Seems pretty self-explanatory to me. That a group of Christians (that group being english speaking, generally fundamental or baptist, certainly not the whole of evangelicalism) tends to use the catch-phrase "god-fearing" in no way provides adequate reason to believe that fear of God (albeit a very real part of Christian living, although not in the sense that you are suggesting) supersedes or even achieves the level of importance that loving God does among those principles by which Christians are to live.
3) Let us put aside for a moment my objection that the use of the phrase "god-fearing" does not entail what hindu would have us believe it does. She would still be bound to explain to us how a specific sect within a group more accurately represents the doctrine of the whole, or more importantly, the doctrine of the founders. Meaning why should modern Bible-Belt Christianity's choice of phrases be representative of the whole of the Christian system which was laid out by the Apostles. This is actually a point which belongs before the other two as it points to flaws in hinduwoman's methodology rather than flaws in the proposition itself.

Anyway, on the whole I'd say this. I think you would do well to determine first what Christian's do believe regarding fear and love before determining to undermine it.

-Shaun

P.S. The fear that I have for God is that of a son who daily struggles with the conflict between his Father's rules and his own desire. When I break them, or stray from His path He will discipline me. And it is painful. I fear pain. This fear causes me to think twice before committing to a lifestyle of sin again. The reason for this process is that the God who cares for me will not let me go. Unlike the one who is not His child. These He will not discipline but in wrath will give them over to the consequences of their own flesh. Which, at first may sound a bit silly. God acting in wrath = hands off or God's wrath = unfettered sin.
So you have this dichotomy. That those who love Him are given pain, and those who hate him are given nothing. Examine the future for these two though and it may make more sense. The disciplined child will usually modify his behavior in the way that the disciplining father desires, and since our God is a loving and omniscient God, fully desiring and knowing the way to my own beneficience, then the way in which I will grow is toward my own fulfillment. If I heed Him in obedience (out of fear of pain at my worst, and out of Love for Him at my best) then I will reap joy. Understand of course that He does this with utmost care and complete patience. Not willing that any of His children should reap the true consequences for their sin. Meaning that He withholds such pain as a last recourse. If all other forms of conviction fail (the Holy Spirit, fellow believers, the Word) then this discipline is the most fitting recourse. Of course I cannot know how long He waits before He employs discpline as I've defined it. Or whether He waits until the most effective moment possible before He does this. I like to think He does being the wisest Person in existence. I do know for sure that His discipline is sometimes separate from consequences of sin. They are usually not causally related. While at other times they are. (i.e My Sin - I sin sexually. His Discipline - I am pulled over for driving recklessly and put in jail because a cop thought it was that serious. This is a possible example of God "disciplining me". I may even still reap the consequences of the particular sin on top of this discipline; pregnancy, broken heart, yada yada ya. The punishment is His supernatural way of getting my attention through discomfort, because the thing being disciplined is not the specific sin usually, rather the relationship as a whole, at least I find this so in my life. One sin does not incur discipline, it usually takes a lifestyle that is characterized by disobedience, or lack of dependence on Him.
On the other hand, the one given over to wrath will enjoy sin unfettered. And because God's commands are those which entail our own fulfillment, the sinner will come to anything but. His own fulfillment, that is. There are concrete consequences to the life of unfettered sin, of which the "vulgar", as Hume put it, would require me to point out if I were trying to argue that the unfettered sinner is worse off. Unwanted pregnancy, hopelessness of addiction, discontent of pride, etc. are some of these. Of course these are the glorified examples of the "worst" sorts of sin and their direct consequences, meaning the most visible. But in the end the thing that matters is this. The life of sin is the life of unfulfilled humanity. From the seemingly "smallest" sin to the "greatest" sin, each is a step away from who we are. And God leaving us alone is the severest punishment He could give us. I hope my attempt to sincerely explain to you the Christian idea of fear, which holds both elements of respect as well as the common idea of being afraid, was helpful.

Christian

Hinduwoman,

The Christian God is to be both feared and loved. He is a God of severe and sure justice, and a God of staggeringly great mercy. Leave either aspect out and you are left with at God who is cruel, or with a God who is unjust.

John 14:23 Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24 He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

Romans 8:38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Respectfully,

Christian

Unforgiven Too

hinduwoman makes a very valid point, in my mind. The phrase which is so very well-known is God-fearing, despite what other doctrine can be set out referring to love, this is certainly something to consider. I know some chose to say fear means awe, but I'm still not convinced.

It always seemed to me when I was a child in a christian school that the religion seemed like it had been specifically "designed" to control people (and being a child, this was long, long before I really thought deeply about either religion or history, which I feel lends some interest) and the strange combination of fear and love of god they constantly ground into us (or tried to, in my case) was probably what sparked it. Especially in light of some of that OT stuff--sort of a "If you don't love God, he'll give you something to be afraid of", it all seemed too much like a threat.

Didn't someone else say it in the "sum up the bible in a phrase" thread in the late RRPE forum? "Fear me not, but fear my Hell". I forget, who said that?

Fear is a valuable tool to control people, and combining it with that universal need for love probably creates a real psychological thing there, like a beaten wife (pardon my analogy) who loves her abusive husband nonetheless, wants him to love her too. I'd appreciate not getting a truckload of angry posts or pm's from Christians on that, as this whole post is just an idle observation and not an accusation.

I'll have to run it by my mother, who is Christian. I don't think even she's ever thought about that God-fearing thing before. Heck, it's only generally crossed my own mind, and I think about these things a lot!

Puck

I think the term 'god fearing' was one of the final things that put me right off of respecting christianity. Sad, sad, sad.

And Irishbrutha, bless your little ole heart, are you sure having to contort your thoughts that much to justify fear is correct? Fear=bad. Love=good.

If I was going to invent a god, it would be based on love, humor, gentleness, forgiveness. Not anger, wrath, punishment, etc.

Demigawd

My mother made me go to a fundie Freewill Baptist church, including bible camp at said church when childkeeping was needed in the summer, until I left home at 18. It's only been recently that I've found out her own belief is more Deist than fundie anything. She was good at ignoring me as I was growing up so she didn't realize I'd bought the fundie line: Fear My Hell, sinner.

When she visited me last year, mother asked why I didn't go to the Thomas Jefferson Unitarian church that's close by. I gritted my teeth and said, "There's something about church-based religion I can't stand." For her, it's always really been about the socializing, and ignore all that hellfire-and-brimstone bullshit. I don't think she'd ever put it that way, of course, being a Proper Southern Country Lady (tm).

I enjoyed explaining to her, after the 9/11 attack, how Judaism, Christianity, and Islam grew out of the same region and share so much in common. Bush may be overdoing the Christian line these days, but I appreciate his post-9/11 statements concerning the overall peacefulness of Islam. When you're sharing the same base mythologies, nobody is the infidel.

excreationist

hinduwoman:
That Hindu article doesn't have any Bible verses about fearing God... here are some:

Proverbs 3:7
"Do not be wise in your own eyes; fear the LORD and shun evil."

Ecclesiastes 12:13
"Now all has been heard; here is the conclusion of the matter: Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man."

Luke 12:4-5
"I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him."

Yeah, the Bible doesn't have the phrase "god-loving" but it still commands people to love God.

e.g.
Deuteronomy 6:5-6
"Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. These commandments that I give you today are to be upon your hearts."

Deuteronomy 30:6
"The Lord your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live."

Luke 10:25-28
On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
"What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"
He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' "
"You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."

(that last passage is like Matthew 22:37 and Mark 12:30)