luvluv

I think the positions of Christian morality and of certain forms of atheistic morality can be summed up in two of the characters from Spiderman: the webslinger himself and the Green Goblin. (Don't laugh, I am going to attempt to make a point)

I was particularly struck by the scene in which the Green Goblin pulled an unconcious Spiderman to a rooftop and tried to persuade him that his increase in power gave him an opportunity to use that power to exploit individuals with less power.

I believe that the Christian tradition, as regards the use of power, can be summed up by the movie's theme: WITH GREAT POWER COMES GREAT RESPONSIBILTY (FOR OTHERS).

Certain forms of athiest morality can be summed up by the Green Goblins position: WITH GREAT POWER COMES GREAT OPPORTUNITY(FOR ONESELF).

*Parentheticals added for clarification*

If you think this is a fair summation of the the positions, I have a few questions for you:

1) Do you think that a persons moral responsiblity changes with his power? Many of you have suggested that morality has its basis in evolution. It has helped the individual survive because he has better opportunities to procreate within a community of norms than outside of it. But doesn't great power change this situation? If morality has as its base only the survival of the individual, then can't an individual acquire enough power so that his morality can no longer interfere with his abillity to survive? By this definition, can any dictator do wrong? Can God ever be accused of doing something wrong? By definition, nothing he does can interfere with his survival.

2) Do you think that the position that WITH GREAT POWER COMES GREAT OPPORTUNITY (FOR ONESELF) will ever be tolerated as an ethic? I mean despite the fact that, if there is no God, it must be true, will it ever be accepted or widely practiced? Personally, I don't think it will ever be accepted as a moral basis whether it is true or not.

3) Would you like to live in a society in which WITH GREAT POWER COMES GREAT OPPORTUNITY (FOR ONESELF) is the morality? Not the exception mind you (I know many people operate under this conviction in our society) but where it is the operative rule. A world in which it is the morality that is actively encouraged by parents, government, and churches.

Thanks and hope this isn't too silly.

The Other Michael

Hi luvluv,

I thought you were going to characterize God as the Green Goblin, since that seems to be his (at times) preferred role model.

Why hasn't the Christian God taken that great responsibility up, instead of using his great power to cruelly torture billions of His creations eternally?

And certain forms of atheist (note the spelling) morality can be summed up as WITH GREAT POWER COMES GREAT RESPONSIBILTY (FOR OTHERS) too - let's avoid the false dichotomies.

And I thought that evolution was aimed at having the species survive, not any given individual.

And if so, it seems like then a person who was acting evolutionarily (quite a ring to that) would, if given GREAT POWER, probably be prone to acting with GREAT RESPONSIBILTY (FOR OTHERS) in order to further the survival of their species.

cheers,
Michael

tronvillain

1)Evolution doesn't "aim" at anything.

2)Group selection, at least in the form you describe, is widely discredited.

scigirl

What power are you referring to? The power in being the majority religion? Or the alleged power from God? In which case, well I have to say, "What power?" since it doesn't exist!

scigirl

Bree

WITH GREAT POWER COMES GREAT OPPORTUNITY.

When I look at that statement, I fit religion over it. The "great power" is what some Christians call "God's Grace" - this grace gives Christians the "right" to preach, witness, and hold the "I'm SAVED" point of view. It is an opportunity for Christians to hold prejudices otherwise unacceptable - for example, one can easily justify the hatred of women simply because the Bible says so.

This is the "opportunity" I see.

WITH GREAT POWER COMES GREAT RESPONSIBILITY.

When I see this statement, I fit atheism over it. The "great power" is knowledge. Once you have knowledge, critical thought, and an open mind in you corner ... well, the sky's the limit. You are free to make wise choices for yourself, free from extra baggage.

Panta Pei

Parker, through all his trials, has remained steadfast in his determination to use his powers for the benefit of all.

I simply do not find this tenet present in the individual christian mindset, assorted denominations/groups, it's leaders or even it's primary lexicon of fables.

The Other Michael

Tronvillain,

You mean I can't use bogus arguments against bogus arguments?

Seriously, once I finish Hawking's book I'll try and get an evolution book to read next. There's a reason I've not been posting in the Evo forum - I don't have the background knowledge yet (as you pointed out).

cheers,
Michael

southernhybrid

Looking at those who govern us, those who run organized religion and those who run corporate America, I think we may already live in such a society. Of course at times there are some CEOs who at least give away a lot of their money, like Ted Turner and Bill Gates. Oh, wait a minute. Those two guys are both atheists.

You have made the mistake of equating, atheism with a moral system. Atheism is very simply the lack of belief in a god. While most atheists are very moral people by the standards of their own societies, they are not moral because of their atheism, but more likely due to the nature of the our species. We are likely hardwired as well as conditioned by our long history to feel responsibility towards others.

I'd like to see some results of how "with great power there comes great responsibility for others" due to the Xian dogma. Throughout history there are countless examples that the opposite is true, i.e. Salem Witch Trials, to the current crisis in the RC Church. Many powerful Xians have used their positions to exploit others to further their own selfish needs, just as many powerful people with other beliefs have done.

I'm not suggesting that there are not many Xian people who are moral and powerful. I am suggesting that their morality is not based on Xian dogma. They may believe this is what it is based on but I think it is most likely hard wired and/or learned through millions of years of existing in a community setting. Another words, Xian morality is based on who and what we are. Social laws of religions such as, don't eat pork, were based on the circumstances of the times in which they were written. Most of those laws may have made some sense in the times they were written but they have long since ceased to make any sense in modern times. But....I digress.

luvluv

I reallize this statement does not cover all atheism, in fact I believe I mentioned that in my question. I know there are atheists on this site who subscribe to objective morality. To those individuals, this question is not addressed.

But there are some of you out there who I have argued with in the past who do believe that a person can (and in some cases it was even argued SHOULD) do whatever he can which benefits him and which he can "get away with" including stealing and even murder. Those are the people to whom this question is addressed.

Again, I mentioned in my original statement that one could describe this world as already having the WITH GREAT POWER COMES GREAT OPPORTUNITY (FOR ONESELF) position. But those people are still acting AGAINST the prevalent morality. Even when Christians do such things, they are not endorsing this morality conciously. I fully admit that many Christians do have the WITH GREAT POWER COMES GREAT OPPORTUNITY philosophy, but we aren't the only ones and that is not relevant to the question really.

So, perhaps I should clarify that this question is aimed mostly at those who believe in a subjective morality, and specifically towards those who hold that, as previously stated, a person should do everything that benefits him that he can "get away with".

scigirl

Well your definition of subjective morality is silly.

It's not that I believe in subjective morality. It's that I believe that humans have subjective morality. That's right, even you luvluv, and all your Christian friends. You just think you have objective morality.

If there is any way to approach objective morality, it is through logic, reason and compassion. Religious beliefs on morality are usually lacking in the first two (based on unverifyable assertions, etc) and often lacking in the third. So, MY subjective morality is better than, say a Christian's.

So, to get this thread back on track to superheroes, I guess I'll have to say, in a fight between superman and spiderman, I would pick "spiderman" because he's cuter. Mmm, toby macguire.

scigirl