Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Bobzammel · 01-09-2003, 10:36 AM

One of the stranger POVs in Christianity is that "the world"(Greek:Kosmos meaning "System" more literally) is under the control of Satan, who apparentally was given the right to hang around here after getting evicted from heaven, or some such. Such a view is at odds with passages in the Old Testament, which potray God as in control of every empire on Earth, but having a particular fondness for the Jewish people...(This has led to some of the more radical fringe Christians to define the OT God as Satan in disguise). Anyway, such a POV seems to state that since Satan is in charge of everything, authority can not be trusted. Apparentally the climax of this will be the government of the Antichrist.
Anyway, the New Testament also states in many passages that Christians should pay taxes, honor local laws, and even pay tribute to the Emperor. In particular the Roman authorities in the NT seem rather friendly to the Christians, while the Jewish authorities are villainized.
Anyway, these oppossing POVS have apparentally caused many schisms...the above has led to many seperatists cults, communities, and compounds, while the second has led to a great deal of Christian meddling in the Government, which unfortunately has caused some problems lately.
Any thoughts on this strange dualism?

seebs · 01-09-2003, 10:45 AM

Well, my thought it "sure doesn't look like it's under the control of Satan to me". There's a lot of stuff about loving the world, or loving God, and I think this probably means "don't get so obsessed with your bank account that it replaces morality for you". I think some people have tried far too hard to derive conclusions from it.

Mageth · 01-09-2003, 11:00 AM

Such a view is at odds with passages in the Old Testament, which potray God as in control of every empire on Earth, but having a particular fondness for the Jewish people...

Not to mention the book of Job, where Satan is portrayed as visiting God in heaven and basically getting permission from God to muck up Job's life.

Bobzammel · 01-09-2003, 11:03 AM

Also,I've heard that the former POV is especially popular among the Jehovah's Witnesses(Who have many controversial beliefs)

braces_for_impact · 01-09-2003, 11:20 AM

Not to mention the book of Job, where Satan is portrayed as visiting God in heaven and basically getting permission from God to muck up Job's life.

Yes, it's also noteworthy that Satan comes walking into heaven without so much as an alarm or even a quip from anywhere. The mighty omniscient god, asks him where he's been! Satan and God go on conversing like old pub buddies, harldy what one would expect from arch enemies.

This is what we would expect if Satan was merely doing the job that god created him to do, namely to be a tempter and adversary under god's command and with his instruction.

This lends credence to the theory that Satan as a fallen angel was invented by the Catholic church when a terrifying force was required to be saved from.

Bree · 01-09-2003, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mageth
Not to mention the book of Job, where Satan is portrayed as visiting God in heaven and basically getting permission from God to muck up Job's life.

Do you think that the story of Job proves that God is more powerful, equally as powerful, or less powerful than Satan?

JerryM · 01-09-2003, 01:55 PM

If I'm not mistaken, I believe the Gnostics maintained a dualistic world view. Two equally powerful god forces, one good, one evil were in continuous struggle to control the universe. Everything that happened in our world was due to effect of either the good or evil entity. And given the fact that both good and bad things happen, that view actually makes some sense. If I were inclined to believe in supernatural forces, dualism would be a lot more logical than the omnipotent and omnibenevolent Biblical God.

Taffsadar · 01-10-2003, 04:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bobzammel

Anyway, the New Testament also states in many passages that Christians should pay taxes, honor local laws, and even pay tribute to the Emperor. In particular the Roman authorities in the NT seem rather friendly to the Christians, while the Jewish authorities are villainized.

Well christianity bended over early and allowed the romans to have it their way. Basicly they licked ass until they became the state religion.

happyboy · 01-10-2003, 06:58 AM

i agree. dualism makes a hell of lot more sense that some supreme being who, for some odd reason, lets his arch-enemy run ramshod over creation.

tell me: if you were the president of the united states, and you uncovered a major american political figure was dedicated to the violent overthrow of american democracy,and to the installation of himself as supreme overlord, would you sit on your ass and let this huge threat run around mucking things up?

on the flipside, if God is so powerful that he CANNOT be overthrown, no matter what trick or strategy satan uses, then why the hell is he letting satan run loose mucking things up, defying his will? doesn't God have the free will to choose to seal up satan forever in hell, rendering the concept of sin obsolete? why put humanity through this kind of suffering?

or does evil need satan somehow? is it impossible for humans to be evil without satan? and if so, what does this say about free will?

happyboy

Mageth · 01-10-2003, 10:38 AM

Do you think that the story of Job proves that God is more powerful, equally as powerful, or less powerful than Satan?

Well, I don't think it "proves" anything, except that maybe god's an egotistical bastard with a mean streak.

It does seem to attribute quite a bit of power to Satan, though.

Anyway, I think many christians, with the godlike power they attribute to Satan (he's everywhere, he can get inside your head, he has near-omnipotent powers, he rules the principalities and powers of the world (at least in this age), you either serve god or serve satan), are really practicing a dualistic/polytheistic religion. They have the evil god Satan mucking things up around here and warring against the good god JehovahJesus.

01-09-2003, 10:36 AM	#1
Bobzammel Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Boston Posts: 276	Authority and the Christian paradox One of the stranger POVs in Christianity is that "the world"(Greek:Kosmos meaning "System" more literally) is under the control of Satan, who apparentally was given the right to hang around here after getting evicted from heaven, or some such. Such a view is at odds with passages in the Old Testament, which potray God as in control of every empire on Earth, but having a particular fondness for the Jewish people...(This has led to some of the more radical fringe Christians to define the OT God as Satan in disguise). Anyway, such a POV seems to state that since Satan is in charge of everything, authority can not be trusted. Apparentally the climax of this will be the government of the Antichrist. Anyway, the New Testament also states in many passages that Christians should pay taxes, honor local laws, and even pay tribute to the Emperor. In particular the Roman authorities in the NT seem rather friendly to the Christians, while the Jewish authorities are villainized. Anyway, these oppossing POVS have apparentally caused many schisms...the above has led to many seperatists cults, communities, and compounds, while the second has led to a great deal of Christian meddling in the Government, which unfortunately has caused some problems lately. Any thoughts on this strange dualism?

01-09-2003, 11:20 AM	#5
braces_for_impact Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: In a nondescript, black helicopter. Posts: 6,637	Satan: an angel given a bad wrap? Not to mention the book of Job, where Satan is portrayed as visiting God in heaven and basically getting permission from God to muck up Job's life. Yes, it's also noteworthy that Satan comes walking into heaven without so much as an alarm or even a quip from anywhere. The mighty omniscient god, asks him where he's been! Satan and God go on conversing like old pub buddies, harldy what one would expect from arch enemies. This is what we would expect if Satan was merely doing the job that god created him to do, namely to be a tempter and adversary under god's command and with his instruction. This lends credence to the theory that Satan as a fallen angel was invented by the Catholic church when a terrifying force was required to be saved from.

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01-09-2003, 10:45 AM	#2
seebs Contributor Join Date: May 2002 Location: Saint Paul, MN Posts: 24,524	Well, my thought it "sure doesn't look like it's under the control of Satan to me". There's a lot of stuff about loving the world, or loving God, and I think this probably means "don't get so obsessed with your bank account that it replaces morality for you". I think some people have tried far too hard to derive conclusions from it.

01-09-2003, 11:00 AM	#3
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Such a view is at odds with passages in the Old Testament, which potray God as in control of every empire on Earth, but having a particular fondness for the Jewish people... Not to mention the book of Job, where Satan is portrayed as visiting God in heaven and basically getting permission from God to muck up Job's life.

01-09-2003, 11:03 AM	#4
Bobzammel Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Boston Posts: 276	Also,I've heard that the former POV is especially popular among the Jehovah's Witnesses(Who have many controversial beliefs)

01-09-2003, 01:55 PM	#7
JerryM Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: St. Louis, MO. Posts: 1,100	If I'm not mistaken, I believe the Gnostics maintained a dualistic world view. Two equally powerful god forces, one good, one evil were in continuous struggle to control the universe. Everything that happened in our world was due to effect of either the good or evil entity. And given the fact that both good and bad things happen, that view actually makes some sense. If I were inclined to believe in supernatural forces, dualism would be a lot more logical than the omnipotent and omnibenevolent Biblical God.

01-10-2003, 06:58 AM	#9
happyboy Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: on the border between here and there, WV Posts: 373	i agree. dualism makes a hell of lot more sense that some supreme being who, for some odd reason, lets his arch-enemy run ramshod over creation. tell me: if you were the president of the united states, and you uncovered a major american political figure was dedicated to the violent overthrow of american democracy,and to the installation of himself as supreme overlord, would you sit on your ass and let this huge threat run around mucking things up? on the flipside, if God is so powerful that he CANNOT be overthrown, no matter what trick or strategy satan uses, then why the hell is he letting satan run loose mucking things up, defying his will? doesn't God have the free will to choose to seal up satan forever in hell, rendering the concept of sin obsolete? why put humanity through this kind of suffering? or does evil need satan somehow? is it impossible for humans to be evil without satan? and if so, what does this say about free will? happyboy

01-10-2003, 10:38 AM	#10
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Do you think that the story of Job proves that God is more powerful, equally as powerful, or less powerful than Satan? Well, I don't think it "proves" anything, except that maybe god's an egotistical bastard with a mean streak. It does seem to attribute quite a bit of power to Satan, though. Anyway, I think many christians, with the godlike power they attribute to Satan (he's everywhere, he can get inside your head, he has near-omnipotent powers, he rules the principalities and powers of the world (at least in this age), you either serve god or serve satan), are really practicing a dualistic/polytheistic religion. They have the evil god Satan mucking things up around here and warring against the good god JehovahJesus.

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