echidna

While it's technically true that the trigger was the article, in fact tensions such as those between Nigerian Christians and Muslims often remain dormant just looking for a spark. Given time these tensions usually have a habit of releasing themselves violently, whatever the trigger.

WW1 & even the LA Riots spring to mind as violent conflicts where relatively minor incidents have released a cascade of built-up tensions.

Seraphim

"While it's technically true that the trigger was the article, in fact tensions such as those between Nigerian Christians and Muslims often remain dormant just looking for a spark. Given time these tensions usually have a habit of releasing themselves violently, whatever the trigger.

WW1 & even the LA Riots spring to mind as violent conflicts where relatively minor incidents have released a cascade of built-up tensions. "

My reply : If they don't want themselves or their children to live in peace with others, let them all die. Why should anyone pity them?

I always blame such stupidity on leaders of such people rather than the people itself, but still, the people have to have common sense to know when to be calm and when not. Protesting and killing people for an excuse such as one person insulted a dead man (prohet? Muhammad) is as stupid as it gets.

Even when you are protesting for something, you should be calm enough to know whether your act will hurt others or not. Islam doesn't promote such as non-violent methods of protesting it seems.

echidna

You use the terms “they” and “the people” as though the entire Nigerian population thinks alike. This is akin to me watching an Islamic Fundamentalist speech in Kuala Lumpur and concluding that the all 20 million Malaysians are members of Al Quaeda.

Such violence (soccer riots, ethnic riots, etc) is characteristically created by small minority elements in any community, usually young male, often unemployed. Typically as well, it is not only the violent element which are the targets for this violence, indeed the weak and innocent usually make soft targets. You seem to say that there’s no reason to pity a non-violent Nigerian who is killed in these riots.

In actual fact, the violence has been relatively isolated to Kaduna but has spread to the capital Abuja. And in a population of 120 million, 200 deaths actually indicates how localised the trouble has been. That said, for someone to display a deliberate lack of regret at the suffering of innocents shows a callous nature indeed.

I don’t know that I’d take seriously being lectured about morality from someone with that attitude.

fcuk

seraphim, you say that a religion that has so much violence in it's path obviously started out on the wrong foot.

what do you call the crusades? the inquisition?

as far as your defence of christianity in the face of the aids epidemic, it's true that christianity did not FOUND the aids virus. however, it is stodgy christian morals that are helping allow aids to spread at horrible rates. for example, many christians are staunchly against teaching the african people about birth control, preferring instead to let them run about un-educated about the aids virus and the contraceptive choices available to them. instead, we allow them to spread the virus and continue having children that the overcrowded, largely starving continent can barely hold. nevermind the fact that many of these children are born with aids as well, and die horrible deaths.

Seraphim

"You use the terms “they” and “the people” as though the entire Nigerian population thinks alike. This is akin to me watching an Islamic Fundamentalist speech in Kuala Lumpur and concluding that the all 20 million Malaysians are members of Al Quaeda."

My reply : Yes, I could say that 20 millions of (Muslims) Malaysians are also the members of Al Queda. Do you know why?

1. While Al Queda uses excuses such as Palestine in their terror attacks, many Muslims condemn countries such as US, UK, etc in simply defending themselves.

2. Muslims themselves say that Islam is peaceful but there have not been a SINGLE leader among Muslims who strive to live with non-Muslims. In most cases, you will see minority Muslims in countries rules by non-Muslims will do something to get their own so-called liberate countries/portion. I give example of Philipines (Abu Saayyaf), India (Kashmir Liberation front), Palestine (PLO) etc. Muslims simply do not know how to live with civilized people.

3. To a Muslim, someone like Osama is simply defending his "country" (the fact is his own country kicked him out) Afghan while big super powers such US bullied small, weak Muslims stated. Why? Because that is the stories portrayed in Al Quran.

This is many more is the reason why I consider Muslims are same alike, no matter what excuse they give.

"Such violence (soccer riots, ethnic riots, etc) is characteristically created by small minority elements in any community, usually young male, often unemployed. Typically as well, it is not only the violent element which are the targets for this violence, indeed the weak and innocent usually make soft targets. You seem to say that there’s no reason to pity a non-violent Nigerian who is killed in these riots. "

My reply : And this so-called minorities needs my sympathy? Sorry, I can only laugh at their stupidity. Anyone who willing to allow his or emotions run wild to an extend of commiting such barbaric acts does not deserve my sympathy. And as for non-violent Nigerians ... they should have common sense to stay away from problem or groups which bring problems instead of getting themselves killed in the crossfire.

"In actual fact, the violence has been relatively isolated to Kaduna but has spread to the capital Abuja. And in a population of 120 million, 200 deaths actually indicates how localised the trouble has been. That said, for someone to display a deliberate lack of regret at the suffering of innocents shows a callous nature indeed. "

My reply : Well, today Kaduna, tomorrow the whole country. Who cares? If they want to live in peace, they have to work hard to do so, which includes using their brains now and then.

Seraphim

"seraphim, you say that a religion that has so much violence in it's path obviously started out on the wrong foot. what do you call the crusades? the inquisition?"

My reply : Did Christ asked anyone to spread it by sword?
Crusades is as much into politics as you can get, only reason they add religion into it is to get more idiots to enter its cause.

Inquistion are simply act of idiots with greed who busy shipping other people's wealthy to Europe simply so their kings and queens could live in luxury. It has as much faith in Christianity as an Atheist has in God.

All throughout the history of mankind, the most successful campaigns always conducted by some smarta$$ who claims he is the tool of some divine force and that he is doing God's work.

"as far as your defence of christianity in the face of the aids epidemic, it's true that christianity did not FOUND the aids virus. however, it is stodgy christian morals that are helping allow aids to spread at horrible rates. for example, many christians are staunchly against teaching the african people about birth control, preferring instead to let them run about un-educated about the aids virus and the contraceptive choices available to them. instead, we allow them to spread the virus and continue having children that the overcrowded, largely starving continent can barely hold. nevermind the fact that many of these children are born with aids as well, and die horrible deaths. "

1. AIDS do not spread IF men and women stick to screwing their partners alone and do not sleep around. Which means, if one avoid pre-martial sex or adultery, then chance of him or her getting one is minimun.

2. I was told by someone on this forum that AIDS spread from monkeys and Apes which they killed. In this statement, it is simply that men are suffering for their abuse of the land and its creatures. You can't wear a condom when you kill an ape to prevent yourself getting it.

3. AIDS also cannot be spread if one doesn't use drugs via injection.

Only thing I have to agree with you is the Christianity's point of view about contraception tools. Maybe someone needs to talk to the Pope about this ...

[ November 26, 2002: Message edited by: Seraphim ]</p>

echidna

Seraphim, your generalisations are naïve to the extreme, false generalisations being the first warning light to bigotry of course.

I find it ironic that your posts represent that element of the anti-theist (or specific group) which criticises religion for its lack of tolerance on the one hand, while with the other displaying just as much bigotry as they are complaining about.

The Muslims I work with & the ones I count as my friends simply do not fit the descriptions which you list as absolutes. Your blanket descriptions are simply wrong. Do extremists exist ? Of course, but to analyse such a broad religious group as “Islamic” so mono-dimensionally is ludicrous. Do you acknowledge that a range of beliefs exists within the religion ? Have you ever come across a Muslim who doesn’t quite fit your model ? If not, I’d suggest you get out more.

As for your lack of consideration for innocents caught up in such violence, it would seem that you would always blame the victim in such circumstances ?

Let’s try another example. 1969, bloody ethnic riots break out in Malaysia between Malay Muslims and Chinese Buddhists. Thousands of Chinese die. Presumably you have similar feelings :

I mean, innocent minorities really only have themselves to blame, don’t they …

Seraphim

"Seraphim, your generalisations are naïve to the extreme, false generalisations being the first warning light to bigotry of course.
I find it ironic that your posts represent that element of the anti-theist (or specific group) which criticises religion for its lack of tolerance on the one hand, while with the other displaying just as much bigotry as they are complaining about. "

My reply : OK, maybe I confuse you with my mixed statements. I make it clear here. I do believe in existence in God because of my own personal experiences, however, I do not consider teachings that uses God to wage war is one that is to be considered as Religion.

I look at the followers' attitude and the way they approach life and the world as reflection of their beliefs, NOT the other way around. A religion do not show how the person is, it is the person who shows what his religion is like.

My personal attitude is this :
1. I believe in God, I don't believe in any religion that promote God through religion.

2. Religion is a way of life to disclipine oneself, NOT to kill others and hope to get paradise for such act.

3. I never blame God for anything, I blame humans for their own misery.

4. IF I make a mistake, it is MY mistake, not yours or my parents or your parents or God. In same way, if a person loses his way in life, it is HIS fault for lack of insight, it is not God's fault for his stupidity.

"The Muslims I work with & the ones I count as my friends simply do not fit the descriptions which you list as absolutes. Your blanket descriptions are simply wrong."

My reply : The Muslims you worked with? Do you live in a country run by this clowns? Have you studied in an institute run by this clowns? Have you been laughed at because your belief (or in Atheist's point of view - lack of belief)? I have, so don't think my description is wrong, pal, I have more insight than you could.

I have 30 years of living in country where the most chaos you will get is from some Muslims decided he wanted to do Jihad. In 30 years, Muslims are the only race in my country who took arms against other - in 1969 and in 1990s.

I studied in an institute run by a Muslim headmistress who closes one eye whenever her race does something stupid but preach about morale and discpline when another race/religionist does something stupid (in this case, I punch out half a dozen men in an unprovocated attack).

Do you know how many times I receive so call "You are a Kafir, Islam is a true religion" crap from Muslims whose thier faith themselves is not even 1/3 of my strenght? Trust me when I said I have a VERY good description of what I'm talking about.

"Do extremists exist ? Of course, but to analyse such a broad religious group as “Islamic” so mono-dimensionally is ludicrous. Do you acknowledge that a range of beliefs exists within the religion ? Have you ever come across a Muslim who doesn’t quite fit your model ? If not, I’d suggest you get out more. "

My reply : I have found those who doesn't fit into this models, and this people are called by their own Muslims as cowards who doesn't want to strife for Islam. Most Muslims afraid to be called Munafiks (Show off their faith in public but live like non-believers in private) than they have fear of God.

"As for your lack of consideration for innocents caught up in such violence, it would seem that you would always blame the victim in such circumstances ? "

My reply : Because I don't believe anything happens without a reason or simply happens. If something happens, it is because it cause by someone or something, thus the burden and blame falls onto that person.

"Let’s try another example. 1969, bloody ethnic riots break out in Malaysia between Malay Muslims and Chinese Buddhists. Thousands of Chinese die. Presumably you have similar feelings :

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry, I can only laugh at their stupidity.
... they should have common sense to stay away from problem or groups which bring problems instead of getting themselves killed in the crossfire.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I mean, innocent minorities really only have themselves to blame, don’t they?"

My reply : My mother and grandmother lived through that mess... do you know why? They stay clear out of trouble and they do not promote more violence by commiting one.
And Yes, If you get killed, its your fault, no one else is to be blamed.

Thor Q. Mada

Not only are Seraphims comments naive, they are not correct. The inquisition had nothing to do with the colonies. It was the secret police of the catholic church and charged with enforcing and policing the faith. Of-course they had representatives everywhere.
They were gestapo, tcheka, name it. By the way, the inquisition survived until not long ago, although her powers were limited.

Seraphim

"Not only are Seraphims comments naive, they are not correct. The inquisition had nothing to do with the colonies. It was the secret police of the catholic church and charged with enforcing and policing the faith. Of-course they had representatives everywhere. "

My reply : Most of the information I receive/read was that Inquistordors were active in South American countries during 1700s, which is why I thought they have something with colonies.

Religion which needs police or laws to make sure their followers follow their teaching? This is indeed something to laugh at.

"They were gestapo, tcheka, name it. By the way, the inquisition survived until not long ago, although her powers were limited."

My reply : Are they related to Al Queda? Sounds like what Al Queda could do. I remember one report stating that Al Queda men force other men out to Mosque on Fridays to pray there (because Al Quran recommended men to pray in groups on Fridays).

Hmm ... almost time to go now.