The Naked Mage

Run for your life, yguy!

<releases hounds>

Celsus

Greetings all,

Please remember that GRD is an upper forum where we would like to see intelligent arguments, not flame bait. If you have nothing constructive to add, please refrain from posting.

Thank you,

Joel aka Celsus
GRD Moderator

Starboy

Mundane level? Unable to communicate? All I asked were some questions to clarify your position. You have the aspect of a person with nothing to back up their claims.

Starboy

Mageth

Eating the fruit was a sin, but had Adam not made an excuse and admitted his mistake, they might never have been thrown out of Eden.

But what of god's previous command to not eat the fruit, and his warning of what would happen if they did?

Sounds like a strawman to me.

Why? it's an example of me making an excuse, equally as valid as:

More realistic would be when you screw up at work, the boss calls you on it, you try to blame your coworker, and he fires you.

And this "sin" deserves eternal punishment in hell?

It's Dad's fault he gave his son the car, not the son's fault he drove it off a cliff, huh?

Exactly right, if Dad knew in advance that his son would drive the car off the cliff.

Why else would god repent of his action in creating mankind if he didn't think it was a mistake, his mistake?

yguy

Was somebody gonna sue God if he gave Adam clemency?

Dunno about that, but it sure in heck deserves firing. Of course a person who doesn't know they have a boss has plausible deniability, at least until he makes his presence known. That kind of person generally doesn't WANT to know he has a boss.

He didn't know he WOULD, he knew he COULD.

I just told you.

Starboy

Mageth, how yguy does dance about the central issue. Holding something responsible for its actions when a) god created it as it is and 2) god knew exactly what it would do. Dance yguy, dance!

Starboy

Mageth

yguy is a dancer, isn't he?

Was somebody gonna sue God if he gave Adam clemency?

Where'd you get this idea that God would give clemency to A&E for disobeying him and eating the fruit, if only they hadn't denied it? I sure don't read it in the bible. Here's Genesis 3:17:

"And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed [is] the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat [of] it all the days of thy life..."

No mention of making excuses there - just the act of disobediently eating the tree.

Dunno about that, but it sure in heck deserves firing. Of course a person who doesn't know they have a boss has plausible deniability, at least until he makes his presence known. That kind of person generally doesn't WANT to know he has a boss.

If god's real, I certainly want to know it. But unfortunately, if he is, he sure is good at hiding the fact.

He didn't know he WOULD, he knew he COULD.

What of god's foreknowledge? Do you not believe god has foreknowledge?

Anyways, the bible story of the Fall is the equivalent of the dad giving a son with no driving experience or instructions (other, perhaps, than the vague command "don't run off a cliff") a car to drive, and the road from the house leads over a dangerous mountain pass that the kid has never been over. If the kid runs off a cliff, the father is certainly to blame.

I just told you.

You have yet to respond to why god is portrayed as saying he repented for making mankind, and wiped out all but a select few to make up for his error.

Treacle Worshipper

As I understand it (and my Catholic theology is a bit dusty) Mary was born from ordinary sex. However, she was "kept pure from sin" (immaculate) from the moment of her conception. All us other scummy humans are saved by being cleansed from sin (via Jesus' blood sacrifice), but, because Mary was destined to be the mother of god, god stopped her sinning in any way at all.

I think this works if you believe the original sin gave us the inclination to sin while not actually making us guilty of sin. Mary gets help in not giving in to that inborn inclination. The rest of us aren't so lucky.

TW

Tarnaak

IMHO

God created us and gave us free will because He planned, from what we consider to be the beginning, a kingdom. God thought it out, planned it, created and now maintains his creation. This kingdom exists in His Realm, which is not of this earth, as yet. This kingdom is Holy and Perfect, as God the Creator is Holy and Perfect.

It would have been easy for him to create this realm and place us into it, but then we would just be drones doing his bidding, with perhaps a false sense of being loved by him. This is where free will comes in. In order to establish His Kingdom he created us with free will so that we would not just be drones. Our existence here on this earth is a proving ground for our Spirit. Only those with a pure Spirit will be allowed into the realm God calls Heaven. A pure Spirit is a spirit that loves God and wants, by choice to do his will.

The Scriptures are inspired by our Creator to show himself to us and to help us better understand Him and his purpose. Scripture shows us what God (Trinity) is like and what Heaven will be like. Scripture gives us a blueprint to live by and a way to be Perfect and Holy ( pure ) through Christ.

God has given us we need to know to be His Children in Heaven. To speak against God and his ways, shows our Spirit and God will judge us accordingly. Judge not, lest ye be judged. This not only speaks of judging each other, but also of judging God. This is not to say that offering a non-believer the opportunity to explore is judging. To offer Scripture and tell one of the consequences of unbelief is not judging, but stating what is to come. Judging another is stating that they are going to hell. One cannot know that for sure, for a minute after you leave, that person may accept the Truth and be granted purity. It is a fine line indeed between judging and offering the truth.

All was predestined, in that God had everything planned. This is not to say, I believe, that each and every one of us has been predisposed to heaven or hell. Each of us has been predestined to live on earth, given free will, given the chance to prove our Spirit that we may enter into God presence in Heaven.

Even Christ coming to our realm and being put to death for our transgressions was predestined. This was done that we might see the Grace and Mercy of our Creator. From the book of Genesis to Revelation is God’s work laid out for us. It is our CHOICE to believe or not to believe. What some perceive as contradictions and fallacies in Scripture, the horrors of every day life, mysteries of the past and present, life and death, false religions, earthly desires, these all are predestined to “test” our Spirit.

As far as what Heaven is like, it will be much the same as in the past and present. There will be tasks to be taken care of and things to do, but there will be no more death or sadness. Scripture even tells us that we will be given stature according to our works. So there will be different positions of responsibility. We are even told of what Heaven will look like, for instance streets made of gold.
The choice is ours and ours alone. We have been given free will and enough evidence to make a choice but at the same time test our spirit. God would like all to believe and reside with Him. He knows not all will believe. This, as Scripture tells us, breaks his heart.

If God was to appear in Spirit in front of you and say “ I am the Lord your God, believe now that you have seen me!” What would that do for you? Would you believe? Most would say, yes, I would believe. But then wouldn’t free will be compromised? And how would God test your spirit? He wouldn’t have to test our spirit you say. He already knows! But then he casts you into hell for an unholy spirit and you cry out, “I am holy! Why did you cast me out?” God does not test our spirit for his sake, but our sake. So when you are judged, you know you were done so justly, in order that you cannot say to Him “You are an unjust God.”


It really comes down to a basic question. Do you want to believe? Either you do or you don’t. Try to disprove God’s existence. It cannot be done. Try to prove God’s existence. It cannot be done, at least not scientifically. This is a matter of SPIRIT. One cannot prove scientifically that our spirit exists. How is one to prove anything of the spirit? The majority of human life agrees that spirit is part of our making. This is a built in mechanism for us to seek that of the Spirit; that of God.

With all that has been written by man, both for and against, one opinion versus another, it all comes to the basic question. In what do you want to believe?

If you want insight to all of this, ask of yourself, why do I believe what I believe? Then honestly answer. Don’t just spew forth some babble about what you have heard or that there isn’t any evidence. There is plenty of evidence if you really look. We all are the same, in that we seek the truth. Otherwise, you wouldn’t be reading this now would you?

To not believe in a Creator, to believe that we spawn from muck and chance evolution, is ludicrous in my humble opinion. As far as being a “Christian”, I choose to believe because it makes the most sense and has a substantial history to back it up, both Biblical and Secular.

Mageth

Tarnaak's last post seems to be a rehashing of a post he made in this thread. I and others responded to the post on that thread.