Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Pomp · 05-29-2002, 02:32 PM

Typhon,

6. Why is the button labeled "free will?"

Several people have asked this question. I believe it is in reference to the (IMO, spurious) theistic proposition that we have the free will to decide whether or not to believe in god or, in other words, that belief is not simply a matter of what seems real to our minds, but what we consciously decide to believe.

parkdalian · 05-29-2002, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DRFseven:


Yes, I agree that this is a better answer; it's more honest. Voluntarily agreeing to changing our beliefs gives us the creeps.

In defending the "no" position, I did express that I didn't mind changing my beliefs, if they were to evolve naturally (e.g. through reasoning and experience.) I didn't want to inadvertently appear close-minded.

I simply would not want to suppress and belittle my world view by a mysterious process such as pressing a button.

DRFseven · 05-29-2002, 08:31 PM

Quote:

daemon: No. If I were the same person other than that belief, then I would eventually doubt, then cease to believe again.

You have no way of ascertaining that because you don't know what your perceptions will be in the future.

Quote:

If you're saying that I would not doubt, and would always be happy, then I do not fully understand the obviously extensive consequences of pressing that button, so, again, I would not press it.

There are no extensive consequences. You'd be happier and you'd believe in God; just as if it came down, landed on your windshield and introduced itself. You'd know you were right and you'd be happy you knew the truth.

DRFseven · 05-29-2002, 08:39 PM

Quote:

DMB: Never mind about buttons, it could be a psychotropic drug that wiped out your personality and made you a permanently blissful idiot.

Yes, another good setup for this question.

parkdalian · 05-29-2002, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DRFseven:


Yes, another good setup for this question.

Well, I suppose that's a wrap for this thread.

Jamie_L · 05-30-2002, 04:45 AM

DRFSeven:

We're getting into another area in which I may be a bit of an oddball, I think. I treasure the existence of my identity. I really consider my identity a continuous process, and I greatly fear drastic, instantaneous changes that come from outside. I'm not being difficult or sidestepping the issue. I would honestly FEAR that pressing the button would destroy me, in some sense. I value my identity, and I really feel there is a distinct difference between me internally making decisions and magical tweaks to my beliefs.

Maybe that's irrational, maybe not. Bottom line, I guess is that I would never be able to fully trust "the button".

Jamie

John R · 05-30-2002, 05:43 AM

I honestly don't know if I would press the button or not, and I don't think the theistic implications are part of the reason.

On the one hand, always being happy would be nice, and once I'd pressed it, had my brain rewired and become a good little believer, I would presumably view athiests the same way I currently view theists.

On the other hand, I would worry what constant happiness would do to my sense of obligation & duty.
If I would still be happy with a much lower paying job that doesn't require 60 hour weeks, why wouldn't I take it.
If I would still be happy without my partner, why would I worry so much about keeping her happy.
If I would still be happy living under a bridge in a box, why worry about the mortgage?

With the goal of gaining temporary happiness as a spur, these are still important. I worry that they might not be afterwards, which would cause me to hurt those around me.

DRFSeven:

If the button were reversed and it would make you a happy athiest, what would you do?

abe smith · 05-30-2002, 06:14 AM

Opinion: all human happiness, the [self-} perception of happiness, the assertion of happiness... is 1. individual {"Nobody-else can do it for you."} and 2.self-chosen. Abe

DRFseven · 05-30-2002, 06:49 AM

From Theli:

1. What will I believe in after hitting the button?

God.

2. Why is it called "free will button" if it makes you believe a certain thing?

That was just a little ironic humor meant to point out the absurdity of the idea of being given free will. If we don't make decisions based on our own experience, then we must be zapped with them (which is the antithesis of a free decision). But don't worry about the free will button; it's gone. It's a plain red plastic button.

3. Why would that belief bring me constant happiness?

I didn't say constant happiness, I said happier. Are you happy now? You'd be happier. And for the purposes of setting up this question, it doesn't matter WHY pushing the button would bring you more happiness, just that it's a given that it would.

4. Is constant happiness possible at all?

No.

5. Where's my banana?

Damn; was that yours? Well, it was just lying there so I ate it; sorry.

6. After introduced to this "new happiness", will I be able to feel fear, sadness, hate or guilt?

Yes.

7. Is the happiness a direct product of hitting the button, or a product of the belief?

I don't know; it doesn't matter. All you'll be able to tell is that you feel generally happier than you used to feel.

Oh, there's my banana!

No, that's mine, but you can have it. I'm fair.

DRFseven · 05-30-2002, 06:59 AM

Double post

[ May 30, 2002: Message edited by: DRFseven ]

05-30-2002, 06:59 AM	#30
DRFseven Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,322	Double post [ May 30, 2002: Message edited by: DRFseven ]</p>

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05-29-2002, 02:32 PM	#21
Pomp Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Indianapolis area Posts: 3,468	Typhon, 6. Why is the button labeled "free will?" Several people have asked this question. I believe it is in reference to the (IMO, spurious) theistic proposition that we have the free will to decide whether or not to believe in god or, in other words, that belief is not simply a matter of what seems real to our minds, but what we consciously decide to believe.

05-30-2002, 04:45 AM	#26
Jamie_L Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: U.S. Posts: 2,565	DRFSeven: We're getting into another area in which I may be a bit of an oddball, I think. I treasure the existence of my identity. I really consider my identity a continuous process, and I greatly fear drastic, instantaneous changes that come from outside. I'm not being difficult or sidestepping the issue. I would honestly FEAR that pressing the button would destroy me, in some sense. I value my identity, and I really feel there is a distinct difference between me internally making decisions and magical tweaks to my beliefs. Maybe that's irrational, maybe not. Bottom line, I guess is that I would never be able to fully trust "the button". Jamie

05-30-2002, 05:43 AM	#27
John R Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Harrogate, England Posts: 8	I honestly don't know if I would press the button or not, and I don't think the theistic implications are part of the reason. On the one hand, always being happy would be nice, and once I'd pressed it, had my brain rewired and become a good little believer, I would presumably view athiests the same way I currently view theists. On the other hand, I would worry what constant happiness would do to my sense of obligation & duty. If I would still be happy with a much lower paying job that doesn't require 60 hour weeks, why wouldn't I take it. If I would still be happy without my partner, why would I worry so much about keeping her happy. If I would still be happy living under a bridge in a box, why worry about the mortgage? With the goal of gaining temporary happiness as a spur, these are still important. I worry that they might not be afterwards, which would cause me to hurt those around me. DRFSeven: If the button were reversed and it would make you a happy athiest, what would you do?

05-30-2002, 06:14 AM	#28
abe smith Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: springfield, MA. USA Posts: 2,482	Opinion: all human happiness, the [self-} perception of happiness, the assertion of happiness... is 1. individual {"Nobody-else can do it for you."} and 2.self-chosen. Abe

05-30-2002, 06:49 AM	#29
DRFseven Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,322	From Theli: 1. What will I believe in after hitting the button? God. 2. Why is it called "free will button" if it makes you believe a certain thing? That was just a little ironic humor meant to point out the absurdity of the idea of being given free will. If we don't make decisions based on our own experience, then we must be zapped with them (which is the antithesis of a free decision). But don't worry about the free will button; it's gone. It's a plain red plastic button. 3. Why would that belief bring me constant happiness? I didn't say constant happiness, I said happier. Are you happy now? You'd be happier. And for the purposes of setting up this question, it doesn't matter WHY pushing the button would bring you more happiness, just that it's a given that it would. 4. Is constant happiness possible at all? No. 5. Where's my banana? Damn; was that yours? Well, it was just lying there so I ate it; sorry. 6. After introduced to this "new happiness", will I be able to feel fear, sadness, hate or guilt? Yes. 7. Is the happiness a direct product of hitting the button, or a product of the belief? I don't know; it doesn't matter. All you'll be able to tell is that you feel generally happier than you used to feel. Oh, there's my banana! No, that's mine, but you can have it. I'm fair.

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