Rousseau_CHN

That was how Plato ended the story of Charmides. And that is why I stopped reading Plato. I was a little homophobic back then. Years later I would read that all of Philosophy is a footnote of Plato.

Honestly, did I miss that much?

philechat

The early English translations of Plato usually left out the homosexual part of his idea of love. The translations that did take note in the homosexuality of ancient Greek culture first got banned and later "edited" due to Victorian disapproval of homosexuality...

Which is ironic since the more accurate translation was the version banned--indicating that people could stand only a little truth at one time (borrowing T.S. Eliot's phrase).

Plato was certainly crucial to western philosophy. The long days of mideval Christian apologetics borrowed much from Plato's ideas, and thinkers as modern as Nietzsche made numerous allusions to Plato in his "Thus spoke Zarathustra". Read him yourself and draw your own conclusion.

AnthonyAdams45

But every time I teach a course in philosophy, I cannot avoid talking about Plato. One can hardly understand any conversation where one only hears one speaker. To fail to at least read the Meno, the Republic, and, oh, just to be perverse, the Parmenides is to fail the ongoing conversation of philosophy.

lpetrich

On that subject, would it be fair to describe Plato's Republic as a totalitarian quasi-theocracy?

I call it a quasi-theocracy, because the closest thing to philosopher-monarchs in practice has been theocrats.

Also, back in 1920, Bertrand Russell had compared the early Soviet state to Plato's Republic, to the equal displeasure of both Platonists and Communists.

xoc

Actually the Republic of Plato needed a "god" for it to work, or the belief of a god. The people were to be taught that the guardians(the philosopher-elite class)were made of gold, hence they could not obtain gold of their own. The other classes of people would be created by this "god" of lesser materials- Plato saw the "religion" as a form of restraint on the people, to keep them in line with the vision of the Republic.

In many ways the Communist vision and Plato's Republic are similar- in terms of the guardians. They would not distinguish individual parents(and would not even know who their real parents were) but would consider all the elders to be "father" and "mother" and their peers to be their "brothers". But this was not to be effected on the lower classes. The guardian class had a kind of communistic similarity, and control of resources and finances was controlled by the State, like the Communist state(called a command-economy rather than the market-economy of the capitalist). Both states would emphasize the Community over and against the desires and freedoms of the individual.

Will Durant saw the partial embodiement of Plato's Republic in the Catholic Church of the Middle Ages. The priests were the holders of knowledge(like the guardians) and
had the scrolls, and information, and the Church had governing
power.
Theyalso were not allowed to hold private property- just like the guardian class of Plato's Republic. That was in The Story of Philosophy. But a true fulfillment of the Republic is actually impossible, as Plato's division of man into (3?) classes is far too basic for the real nature of humanity, and a lot of his expectations on the good nature and gullibility of the people is quite unfounded. The idea that people are willing to work and toil as much for the State as they would for themselves is one that expects too much of people. This is also a good reason why Communism has not worked as hoped.

The Death of Socrates is also a pretty good book and a short read.

lpetrich

Actually, Plato called his Republic's official religion a "royal lie" or "royal fable" -- to my mind, he was being very honest about the presumption that some brand of religion is good because it makes people virtuous. If making people virtuous is what counts, and not truth, then it could just as well be false. As Plato recognized.

And one thing especially fun about his Republic is that Plato's society's sacred books would be banned from it, on account of all the (to Plato) bad examples that they contain. Bad examples like heroes lamenting and gods laughing.

Agricola Senior

Isn't Plato's Republic more like Nazi (Hitler's) State ?

lpetrich

I doubt it. The Nazis were too irrational and crude.

tronvillain

Plato. *bah* Give me Socrates any day (the real Socrates, not the bits Plato made up).

AnthonyAdams45

And the source for this real Socrates? Note, I'm not denying Plato's inventiveness, I'm just wondering whose Socrates you're labelling real?