Derek

Have to agree with Godless Dave, I know what is right and wrong. My parents had something to do with it when I took a smack when I was messing up but I can't say they believe anymore. So where does it come from? Is it learned? Is it inherent? How do we know what is right and wrong? If I smacked my brother for no reason, where did it come from? Did he earn it? If he did and I don't believe how do I know he earned it?

[ March 26, 2002: Message edited by: Derek ]</p>

echidna

99Percent

Ok, you can become an animal if you want to. Just don't be surprised if you get locked up or hunted down as one as a result!

thefugitivesaint

99% wrote:

I really hate to be as anal as i am on this particular point but we already are animals. Guillaume777's comment was, in itself, a rational proclamation which affirmed his/her's apparently unique ability as a member of this species of animals to be able to think rationaly (not that rationality has very much to do with ones emotional states and attitudes)

When Guillaume777 claimed that "Values IMO are completly useless and should be destroyed..." he or she was taking an intellectual stance on a particular philosophical topic. This act is the direct opposite of becoming more "animal" like or regressed. It would simply mean that this particular person would essentially inherit great difficulties when it came to their social existence. Questioning "values", their foundations or lack thereof, their meaning or lack thereof, is something i endevour to do myself and i encourage others to do the same but i do not think that one can simply abandon, wholesale, all notions of "value" or "good" even if that means retaining these notions for oneself in support of ones own narrow interests. Even theives have "values", trust me on that.

So 99% please cease and desist on all notions which seem to support the notion that we are not an animal no matter how unique we like to think our own species to be.

-theSaint

P.S. edited to remind self never to post after having come home from the bar where great quantities of alcohol was comsumed.

[ March 26, 2002: Message edited by: thefugitivesaint ]</p>

99Percent

thefugitivesaint:

Hello! I am glad you are back, alcohol or no alcohol - I am a few drinks down on tequila myself right now, so...

I really hate to be as anal as i am on this particular point but we already are animals

We are animals in the biological sense, yes, just like we are matter in the molecular sense. However going beyond the molecular realm, life is definitely distinct from non life if you can expand the realm of existence to encompass life/death. Likewise consciousness is beyond just the animalness, it belongs exclusively to the human realm. That is why we are not just animals.

I will answer the rest of your post when I am a bit more sober

Maleficus

And what should I do if I don't know what fistcuffs are??

three4jump

Morality is not as useful as a social contract. I think it's immoral to eat a cheeseburger (even though I do it occasionally) but I can't get a majority of the people to agree with me, so I'm stuck in a cheeseburger society.

While everyone's concept of morality is different, we can still come to an agreement on a social contract: if you take this action, it will have these consequences. We have the beginnings of such a system now, and I would like to see it taken further. Currently, you can exempt yourself from the social contract if you are a politician, a CEO, a priest, or wealthy enough to afford the best lawyer.

Even people who kill their own children claim to be moral by saying, "I did it to protect them from the evil in this world." It seems like no one who was ever convicted of a crime ever said, "Yes, I knew it was wrong and I deserve to suffer the consequences." Although I don't personally know many criminals, my impression is that they feel they know what is right and what is wrong, and there is some justification or rationalization for their crime which makes it a moral act. A social contract makes that subjective morality irrelevant.

I think the social-contract aspect of our society could be improved if there were subsets that offered different social contracts. For example, prostitution is legal in certain areas of Nevada. You can agree to the social contract that accomodates gambling and prostitution by living in Nevada. If there were a state where McDonalds and WalMart were either outlawed or held accountable for their impact on society, I would move there in order to participate in a social contract that suited my morality. If their were a state in which religion was obligated to tell the truth (and so cease to exist) I would move there.

(edited because I need dictionary.com more than most people.)

[ March 27, 2002: Message edited by: three4jump ]</p>

three4jump

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