Freethought & Rationalism Archive

manhattan · 01-28-2002, 05:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by lpetrich:
<strong> Where are the leading Muslim clerics who have taken out full-page ads in newspapers calling for a jihad against Osama bin Laden? Yes, jihad.</strong>

Funny you should ask that. <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2002/01/27/international/asia/27JIHA.html" target="_blank">Here</a> is an article in Sunday's New York Times on the confusion between legitimate jihad and terrorism and on the conflicted feelings many Muslims have because they know the terrorist attacks were not legit but they hate America enough, anyway. The article includes some pretty strong anti-Osama statements from people who hate America a lot.

The Times requires free registration, but I've never been spammed by them.

Born Free · 01-28-2002, 09:50 AM

Sorry to rant on but we just saw on the national news the family of one of the British muslims being held in Cuba. They were moaning that he is innocent, they don't know how he got there that he is more interested in football and they are demanding, not asking, but demanding that Tony Blair get him out. If TB gets involved in any way I will go mad. This is the shit that we have to put up with.

GunnerJ · 01-28-2002, 04:24 PM

Quote:

You taking the piss?? Did you read the article?? I don't have a problem with what religion they practice so long as it doesn't advocate violence toward anyone or do you think that's alright??

"Taking the piss?"

But anyway, that wasn't your original statement. Don't get angry at me for not making yourself more clear.

Born Free · 01-28-2002, 11:54 PM

I got annoyed since you took my original statement and twisted it totally out of context with what I'm saying. That my friend is taking the piss.

Thor Q. Mada · 01-29-2002, 01:01 AM

Come on guys, Islam is just as violent as any other monotheistic religion. Don't forget it is also based on this cruel , jealous potentate of a abrahamic god.
That the west allows on its own ground anti propaganda is outright stupid and weak.
By the way, most people have it looks like forgotten the outrage in Egypt after the investigation on the Egypt air crash pointed clearly in the direction of pilot suicide. Remember , moslims don't commit suicide. And the suicide bombers in israel, and the suicidal maniacs on the 11th of september. Do you know of any other religion with such a beautiful sacrifice record? Oh yes, the catholic faith as a few martyrs as well. Or were they terrorists??
These moslims talking about this peacefull islam, believe there own stories, as do the catholics and the jews. Maybe this is a typical caracteristic of the abrahamic religion??
On a further note, the amount of peer pressure in a "normal" moslim community is staggering. Do you think that if you are adeclared moslim, you can escape. Maybe if you move to another country.
All the above just to make one point: all that talk about moderate and peace loving moslims is nonsense.

jojo-sa · 01-29-2002, 01:26 AM

Quote:

Come on guys, Islam is just as violent as any other monotheistic religion. Don't forget it is also based on this cruel , jealous potentate of a abrahamic god.
That the west allows on its own ground anti propaganda is outright stupid and weak.
By the way, most people have it looks like forgotten the outrage in Egypt after the investigation on the Egypt air crash pointed clearly in the direction of pilot suicide. Remember , moslims don't commit suicide. And the suicide bombers in israel, and the suicidal maniacs on the 11th of september. Do you know of any other religion with such a beautiful sacrifice record? Oh yes, the catholic faith as a few martyrs as well. Or were they terrorists??
These moslims talking about this peacefull islam, believe there own stories, as do the catholics and the jews. Maybe this is a typical caracteristic of the abrahamic religion??
On a further note, the amount of peer pressure in a "normal" moslim community is staggering. Do you think that if you are adeclared moslim, you can escape. Maybe if you move to another country.
All the above just to make one point: all that talk about moderate and peace loving moslims is nonsense.

You seem a smart guy, so why can't you distinguish between people and there behaviour and the system?????

Triple Six · 01-29-2002, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jojo-sa:
<strong>

You seem a smart guy, so why can't you distinguish between people and there behaviour and the system?????</strong>

The system shapes the people. If you pump them full of hatred of non believers as islam does is it any surprise that some interpret this a little more enthusiastically than others? Just check through the news every day, when some lunatic has committed murder and or suicide in the name of some religion it is odds on that islam the one concerned. Coincidence? I think not.

-DM- · 01-29-2002, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Thor Q. Mada:
All the above just to make one point: all that talk about moderate and peace loving moslims is nonsense.

From what I have been able to determine so far, that is true.

It looks to me as if moderate, "peace-loving" Muslims don't understand the Quran any better than liberal Christians understand the Bible.

In contrast to the URL which jojo-sa posts, which site allegedly answers all one's questions, there is such as this:

All of the following was gathered from previously posted feedback:

Quote:

From Ibn Warraq, author of Why I Am Not A Muslim:

However, to pretend that Islam has nothing to do with Terrorist Tuesday is to wilfully ignore the obvious and to forever misinterpret events. Without Islam the long-term strategy and individual acts of violence by Usama bin Laden and his followers make little sense.

Jihad is "a religious war with those who are unbelievers in the mission of the Prophet Muhammad [the Prophet]. It is an incumbent religious duty, established in the Qur�an and in the Traditions as a divine institution, and enjoined specially for the purpose of advancing Islam and repelling evil from Muslims"[1].

We read (IX. 5-6): "Kill those who join other gods with God wherever you may find them";

IV.76: "Those who believe fight in the cause of God";

VIII.39-42: "Say to the Infidels: if they desist from their unbelief, what is now past shall be forgiven; but if they return to it, they have already before them the doom of the ancients! Fight then against them till strife be at an end, and the religion be all of it God�s."

Those who die fighting for the only true religion, Islam, will be amply rewarded in the life to come:

IV.74: "Let those who fight in the cause of God who barter the life of this world for that which is to come; for whoever fights on God�s path, whether he is killed or triumphs, We will give him a handsome reward."

"Ah, but you are confusing Islam with Islamic fundamentalism. The Real Islam has nothing to do with violence," apologists of Islam argue.

There may be moderate Muslims, but Islam itself is not moderate. There is no difference between Islam and Islamic fundamentalism: at most there is a difference of degree but not of kind. All the tenets of Islamic fundamentalism are derived from the Qur�an, the Sunna, and the Hadith--Islamic fundamentalism is a totalitarian construct derived by Muslim jurists from the fundamental and defining texts of Islam.

[for more see: <a href="http://www.secularhumanism.org/wtc.htm" target="_blank">STATEMENT BY IBN WARRAQ ON THE WORLD TRADE CENTER ATROCITY</a>]

Quote:

From the <a href="http://www.golshan.com/rationalthinking/index.htm" target="_blank">Rational Thinking</a> website.

Quran takes away the freedom of belief from all humanity and tell clearly that no other religion except Islam is accepted (Q. 3: 85).

It relegates those who disbelieve in Quran to hell (Q. 5: 11), calls them najis (filthy, untouchable, impure) (Q. 9: 28).

It says that the non-believers will go to hell and will drink boiling water (Q. 14: 17).

Quran asks the Muslims to strive against the unbelievers with great endeavor (Q. 25: 52), be stern with them because they belong to hell (Q. 66: 9).

It orders its followers to fight the unbelievers until no other religion except Islam is left (Q. 2: 193).

Quran tells Muslims to kill the disbelievers wherever they find them (Q. 2:191), to murder them and treat them harshly (Q. 9:123), slay them (Q. 9: 5), fight with them, (Q. 8: 65 ) even if they are Christians and Jews, humiliate them and impose on them a penalty tax (Q. 9: 29).

It asks the Muslims to slay or crucify or cut the hands and feet of the unbelievers, that they be expelled from the land with disgrace and that they shall have a great punishment in world hereafter" (Q.5: 34).

The holy Prophet demanded his follower to strike off the heads of the disbelievers"; then after making a wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives" (Q. 47: 4).

As for the disbelievers", it says that for them garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowls and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods" (Q. 22: 9).

Quran prohibits a Muslim to befriend a non-believer even if that non-believer is the father or the brother of that Muslim (Q. 9: 23), (Q. 3: 28).

-DM- · 01-29-2002, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jojo-sa:
You seem a smart guy, so why can't you distinguish between people and there behaviour and the system?????

By the same token, you should be able to see that people are essentially their behavior, and behavior is largely shaped by one's belief systems.

--Don--

hinduwoman · 01-29-2002, 05:39 PM

legitimate jihad vs. terrorism: legitimate in whose view? what proof can you offer that Laden's views are not correct?

Look at the what Muhammad himself did to those who opposed him. He wiped out all pagans and Jews and assassinated a poetess who lampooned him. when Imamas called for a fatewah against Rushdie they were only follwoing their Prophet of peace's footsteps.

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01-28-2002, 09:50 AM	#12
Born Free Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Scotland Posts: 4,177	Sorry to rant on but we just saw on the national news the family of one of the British muslims being held in Cuba. They were moaning that he is innocent, they don't know how he got there that he is more interested in football and they are demanding, not asking, but demanding that Tony Blair get him out. If TB gets involved in any way I will go mad. This is the shit that we have to put up with.

01-28-2002, 11:54 PM	#14
Born Free Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Scotland Posts: 4,177	I got annoyed since you took my original statement and twisted it totally out of context with what I'm saying. That my friend is taking the piss.

01-29-2002, 01:01 AM	#15
Thor Q. Mada Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Asia Posts: 3,558	Come on guys, Islam is just as violent as any other monotheistic religion. Don't forget it is also based on this cruel , jealous potentate of a abrahamic god. That the west allows on its own ground anti propaganda is outright stupid and weak. By the way, most people have it looks like forgotten the outrage in Egypt after the investigation on the Egypt air crash pointed clearly in the direction of pilot suicide. Remember , moslims don't commit suicide. And the suicide bombers in israel, and the suicidal maniacs on the 11th of september. Do you know of any other religion with such a beautiful sacrifice record? Oh yes, the catholic faith as a few martyrs as well. Or were they terrorists?? These moslims talking about this peacefull islam, believe there own stories, as do the catholics and the jews. Maybe this is a typical caracteristic of the abrahamic religion?? On a further note, the amount of peer pressure in a "normal" moslim community is staggering. Do you think that if you are adeclared moslim, you can escape. Maybe if you move to another country. All the above just to make one point: all that talk about moderate and peace loving moslims is nonsense.

01-29-2002, 05:39 PM	#20
hinduwoman Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: India Posts: 6,977	legitimate jihad vs. terrorism: legitimate in whose view? what proof can you offer that Laden's views are not correct? Look at the what Muhammad himself did to those who opposed him. He wiped out all pagans and Jews and assassinated a poetess who lampooned him. when Imamas called for a fatewah against Rushdie they were only follwoing their Prophet of peace's footsteps.

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