Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Nu · 05-15-2002, 05:14 AM

All the work I do studying everyday, all the time I spend talking, laughing, sleeping, thinking and the like, it seems to lose all meaning when I imagine that in around 60 years I will be dead. I cant explain why I feel that way, nor do I even agree with it. Its simply an intutive response, like jerking my hand away if I burn it on a hot stove.

abe smith · 05-15-2002, 06:00 AM

Why worry about All-That? *Live it.*

braces_for_impact · 05-15-2002, 06:02 AM

It is natural to feel negative about death. Many do not like the prospect of a living world going on without their own existence intact.

Unfortunately, there is absolutely no evidence of any kind of afterlife. We are here for a short time and we must make the best of it. Going to school, studying and laughing are all parts of your life, and they will all help you to enjoy it now and as time goes on.

It would be great to think there was an afterlife, that people were actually immortal, and that there was some awe-inspiring reason for our existence, but there is none. IMHO it is exceptionally vain to think that there must be some reason for humanity to be in this universe. As to life, if you require a personal reason for your own existence (some do and some do not) then base it on your values and use that as your motivation. Perhaps your here to help people and be kind whenever possible, etc.

Death is a fact of life. Die with the satisfaction that you lived it well, helped others where you could, hurt as little as possible, and had a good go of it all.

owleye · 05-15-2002, 09:28 AM

Nu...

I think you have touched on an important issue. Interestingly, it is when we think of ourselves as forever young, or forever in love, so to speak, that life itself is taken for granted. It is when we (eventually) accept our fate that we recognize the value in having lived a good life, one that we may feel we have wasted up to that time.

However, there are three reasons, I think, for considering our own limited lifetime as meaningful, all of which restore a degree of permanence to what was previously thought of as impermanent: (1) the permanence associated with how we are remembered by those that survive us; (2) the permanence of our genetic lineage; and (3) the permanence of our contribution to the overall well-being of those who follow us.

owleye

Koyaanisqatsi · 05-15-2002, 09:48 AM

A better question to ask yourself, then, would be why do you think an "after life" provides meaning?

What is it about thinking that you will "live" forever that allows you to apply what is subjective regardless of how long you "live" to your experiences?

Kachana · 05-15-2002, 12:21 PM

Someone (Voltaire?) once said something along the lines of:

'Either the soul lives on after death, or it perishes with the flesh and this life is all we will ever know, live then as if you were immortal'

As all we will ever know is this life, it's impermenance is a pretty moot issue for me.

southernhybrid · 05-15-2002, 06:14 PM

This quote from the philosopher Epicurus explains how I look at things. Maybe it will give you a little comfort.

Quote:

Accustom yourself to believing that death is nothing to us, for good and evil imply the capacity for sensation, and death is the privation of all sentience; therefore a correct understanding that death is nothing to us makes the mortality of life enjoyable, not by adding to life a limitless time, but by taking away the yearning after immortality. For life has no terrors for him who has thoroughly understood that there are no terrors for him in ceasing to live. Foolish, therefore, is the man who says that he fears death, not because it will pain when it comes, but because it pains in the prospect. Whatever causes no annoyance when it is present, causes only a groundless pain in the expectation. Death, therefore, the most awful of evils, is nothing to us, seeing that, when we are, death is not come, and, when death is come, we are not. It is nothing, then, either to the living or to the dead, for with the living it is not and the dead exist no longer.

Enjoy all the things that life provides. Try not to feel that something doesn't have value or meaning to you just because it's temporary. I guess we could say that even the stars in the sky are temporary yet think of all the life
that would have never existed without the star that provides light and warmth for our planet. That too is temporary but that fact doesn't make our lives any less enjoyable, unless we allow it to. Try to enjoy your few seconds of existence, or you will waste it away worrying about an eventuality that can't be changed.

phaedrus · 05-16-2002, 12:17 AM

Nu

All the work I do studying everyday, all the time I spend talking, laughing, sleeping, thinking and the like, it seems to lose all meaning when I imagine that in around 60 years I will be dead. I cant explain why I feel that way, nor do I even agree with it. Its simply an intutive response, like jerking my hand away if I burn it on a hot stove.

Death is a fact...

Quote:

Life is tragic simply because the earth turns and the sun inexorably rises and sets, and one day, for each of us, the sun will go down for the last, last time. Perhaps the whole root of our trouble, the human trouble, is that we will sacrifice all the beauty of our lives, will imprison ourselves in totems, taboos, crosses, blood sacrifices, steeples, mosques, races, armies, flags, nations, in order to deny the fact of death, which is the only fact we have. James Baldwin - The fire next time

Accept the fact and try to make the best of the so-called existence. Dont ask for reasons to live, if one doesnt find them or convince themselves of their raison d'etre, they will end up living a lie and regret their life on their deathbed. Existential angst is something we all go through, it is how you come out of this phase that will determine the way you live. Most shrug off the feeling and will cling to cherished notions of life and hopefully the remaining will start to experience life in a non-traditional way. (sic!)

Owl

there are three reasons, I think, for considering our own limited lifetime as meaningful, all of which restore a degree of permanence to what was previously thought of as impermanent: (1) the permanence associated with how we are remembered by those that survive us; (2) the permanence of our genetic lineage; and (3) the permanence of our contribution to the overall well-being of those who follow us.

You are talking about your own life and the reasons i presume? Is living under the shadow of impermanence impossible? Why should we try to leave something behind for people to remember us? Is that the purpose of life...to leave something behind so that the blokes dont forget?

JP

Adrian Selby · 05-16-2002, 01:00 AM

The very fact that things are impermanent for me gives them value. How much could I value something if I knew I was never going to lose it.

The fact that people I've loved will die, including a friend now that has a few months to live makes every moment I spend with them utterly precious. The tragedy of it all gives the experiences I have a desparate impossible to price value.

Also, because death is the end of me, every day I'm here I feel I must do something with, because there is nothing otherwise, one is 'not' with regard to before and after one's life, like some window that opens when you're born into the only thing that 'is'. While simply being alive to me is worth valuing with regard to the other option, its moreso because its so fleeting.

The usual suspects of leaving things behind and having children of coures help to create a feeling that something will survive. Personally I don't see how anyone could not want to do something that they would be remembered by, that in some small way they made a mark for whatever good.

I don't see how anyone can value life very much when they know that if they follow the Bible and are good they'll get a blissful eternity. Life seems somehow dull, and a frustrating wait for that bliss. One can only really appreciate and value life if one is going to lose it. In this way atheists treasure life far more than theists.

Adrian

Jamie_L · 05-16-2002, 04:52 AM

Can't find the source right now, but the quote is roughly:

"Time you enjoyed wasting was not wasted."

Do you like eating good food? Do you like having fun? If you were in the middle of a rocking party, would you stop and leave just because someone pointed out that after the party was over, none of this fun would matter? Why not just enjoy the party for as long as it lasts, simply because the party is enjoyable.

We're here. Some day we won't be. We have only two choices: live or die. Since we're going to die anyway, why not live it up until you do? What's the point? The point is that I enjoy existing. What more do I need?

Jamie

05-15-2002, 05:14 AM	#1
Nu Junior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Nu Posts: 58	How do you attach value to something impermanent? All the work I do studying everyday, all the time I spend talking, laughing, sleeping, thinking and the like, it seems to lose all meaning when I imagine that in around 60 years I will be dead. I cant explain why I feel that way, nor do I even agree with it. Its simply an intutive response, like jerking my hand away if I burn it on a hot stove.

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05-15-2002, 06:00 AM	#2
abe smith Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: springfield, MA. USA Posts: 2,482	Why worry about All-That? Live it.

05-15-2002, 06:02 AM	#3
braces_for_impact Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: In a nondescript, black helicopter. Posts: 6,637	It is natural to feel negative about death. Many do not like the prospect of a living world going on without their own existence intact. Unfortunately, there is absolutely no evidence of any kind of afterlife. We are here for a short time and we must make the best of it. Going to school, studying and laughing are all parts of your life, and they will all help you to enjoy it now and as time goes on. It would be great to think there was an afterlife, that people were actually immortal, and that there was some awe-inspiring reason for our existence, but there is none. IMHO it is exceptionally vain to think that there must be some reason for humanity to be in this universe. As to life, if you require a personal reason for your own existence (some do and some do not) then base it on your values and use that as your motivation. Perhaps your here to help people and be kind whenever possible, etc. Death is a fact of life. Die with the satisfaction that you lived it well, helped others where you could, hurt as little as possible, and had a good go of it all.

05-15-2002, 09:28 AM	#4
owleye Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Home Posts: 229	Nu... I think you have touched on an important issue. Interestingly, it is when we think of ourselves as forever young, or forever in love, so to speak, that life itself is taken for granted. It is when we (eventually) accept our fate that we recognize the value in having lived a good life, one that we may feel we have wasted up to that time. However, there are three reasons, I think, for considering our own limited lifetime as meaningful, all of which restore a degree of permanence to what was previously thought of as impermanent: (1) the permanence associated with how we are remembered by those that survive us; (2) the permanence of our genetic lineage; and (3) the permanence of our contribution to the overall well-being of those who follow us. owleye

05-15-2002, 09:48 AM	#5
Koyaanisqatsi Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Yes, I have dyslexia. Sue me. Posts: 6,508	A better question to ask yourself, then, would be why do you think an "after life" provides meaning? What is it about thinking that you will "live" forever that allows you to apply what is subjective regardless of how long you "live" to your experiences?

05-15-2002, 12:21 PM	#6
Kachana Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Bristol, UK Posts: 279	Someone (Voltaire?) once said something along the lines of: 'Either the soul lives on after death, or it perishes with the flesh and this life is all we will ever know, live then as if you were immortal' As all we will ever know is this life, it's impermenance is a pretty moot issue for me.

05-16-2002, 01:00 AM	#9
Adrian Selby Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Farnham, UK Posts: 859	The very fact that things are impermanent for me gives them value. How much could I value something if I knew I was never going to lose it. The fact that people I've loved will die, including a friend now that has a few months to live makes every moment I spend with them utterly precious. The tragedy of it all gives the experiences I have a desparate impossible to price value. Also, because death is the end of me, every day I'm here I feel I must do something with, because there is nothing otherwise, one is 'not' with regard to before and after one's life, like some window that opens when you're born into the only thing that 'is'. While simply being alive to me is worth valuing with regard to the other option, its moreso because its so fleeting. The usual suspects of leaving things behind and having children of coures help to create a feeling that something will survive. Personally I don't see how anyone could not want to do something that they would be remembered by, that in some small way they made a mark for whatever good. I don't see how anyone can value life very much when they know that if they follow the Bible and are good they'll get a blissful eternity. Life seems somehow dull, and a frustrating wait for that bliss. One can only really appreciate and value life if one is going to lose it. In this way atheists treasure life far more than theists. Adrian

05-16-2002, 04:52 AM	#10
Jamie_L Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: U.S. Posts: 2,565	Can't find the source right now, but the quote is roughly: "Time you enjoyed wasting was not wasted." Do you like eating good food? Do you like having fun? If you were in the middle of a rocking party, would you stop and leave just because someone pointed out that after the party was over, none of this fun would matter? Why not just enjoy the party for as long as it lasts, simply because the party is enjoyable. We're here. Some day we won't be. We have only two choices: live or die. Since we're going to die anyway, why not live it up until you do? What's the point? The point is that I enjoy existing. What more do I need? Jamie

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