alek0

Not a biblical concept? Really?

"Paul says "the head of the woman is the man," meaning that the women are to be subordinate to men. 1 Cor.11:3

Women are commanded by Paul to be silent in church and to be obedient to men. He further says that "if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in church." 1 Cor.14:34-35

Paul orders wives to submit themselves to their husbands "in every thing" as though they were gods. "For the husband is the head of the wife." Eph.5:22-24

Wives, according to Paul, must submit themselves to their husbands. Col.3:18

Paul forbids women to teach or "to usurp authority over" men. Rather they are to "learn [from men] in silence with all subjection [to men]." 1 Tim.2:11-12

Men are superior to women in Paul's eyes, since Adam was made before, and sinned after, Eve. But even though women are inferior to men, Paul says they shouldn't be discouraged because they shall "be saved in childbearing." 1 Tim.2:14-15 "

And so on...

Talulah

I'm sorry, did you just use ONE verse from the bible to say that inequality of the sexes isn't a biblical concept? That is really honest. Let's just forget all the others and latch onto ONE verse. Convienant for a xtian to do, use one verse for each point and ignore all the rest that doesn't fit the point he is trying to make at the time. Believe it or not, there are mutiple books to chose from. The theme of a patriarical society is perhaps, the only totally coherant and consistant theme in the bible. Please, don't make stupid statements and try to insult our intelligence.

Queen of Swords

Originally posted by Paul5204:
<strong>I am sorry, but inequality of the sexes is simply not a biblical concept.</strong>

It is definitely an Old Testament concept - unless you think the OT doesn't deserve to be part of the bible?

Talulah

OH, *slaps forehead* I see the point now. Equality in CHRIST. Forget society. We women should be so happy that 'Christ' died for our sins that we don't mind being subject to men.

Yeah, I get it.

hinduwoman

He means that male and female are both elegible for salvation. Since this is a spiritual concept, it is crass to mention social aspects from the same Bible.

Talulah

Point made. My point in my second post still stands though. Equal rights for salvation doesn't equate true equality. I origianally latched onto his last statement which said that inequality is not a biblical concept. I think that showed the true intent of his post.

Sojourner553

To Brian K:

There ARE verses that imply women should be subservient to men--but Paul does "graciously" allow women to be SPIRITUALLY equal to men.

Here are a few verses plus Merlin Stone's take on these:

"Unto the woman [Eve, God] said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy
conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire
shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee." -- Genesis 3:16

"I do not permit a woman to be a teacher, nor must a woman domineer
over man; she should be quiet. For Adam was created first, and Eve
afterwards; and it was not Adam who was deceived; it was the woman who
yielding to deception, fell into sin. Yet she will be saved through
motherhood--if only women continue in faith, love, and holiness, with
a sober mind." --1 Timothy 2:12-15


"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted
unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as
also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask
their husbands at home; for it is a shame for women to speak in the
church." --1 Corinthians 14:34-5

" As I considered the power of myth, it became increasingly difficult
to avoid questioning...the myths accompanying the religions that worship
male deities had upon my own image of what it meant to be born a female.
As a child, I was told that Eve had been made from Adam's rib, brought into
being to be his companion and helpmate, to keep him from being lonely...
I next learnt that Eve was considered to be foolishly gullible. My elders
explained that she had been easily tricked by the promises of the
perfidious serpent. She defied God and provoked Adam to do the same,
thus ruining a good thing--the previously blissful life in the Garden
of Eden. Why Adam himself was never thought to be equally as foolish
was apparently never worth discussing."

---Merlin Stone


_________________________________________________

Actually, I think you should point out OTHER embarrasing verses in the Bible -- that there are obvious superstitious elements in the Bible.


Liberal Christians accept that there are superstitions that have entered into the Bible but still find moral and spiritual value to the biblical stories.


Examples of silliness/superstitions from taking OTHER VERSES in the Bible literally:


(1)According to the Old Testament, God sanctioned the death penalty for:

* Working on the Sabbath day. (Exodus 31:15)

[hehe because Christians changed their sabbath from Saturday to Sunday -- purely because of the influence of the Greek mystery religions --a LITERAL interpretation of the bible would hold they should execute themselves if they worship on Sunday. (Sects like Seventh Day Adventists worship on Saturday for this reason.) {Of course we want people to wake up on this -- not start a round of Inquisitional executions}

* Anyone who strikes or curses his father or mother. (Exodus 21:15,17)


* Children who are gluttons or drunks, and are so proclaimed to the elders
by their parents. (Deuteronomy 21:18-23)

* All witches (Exodus 22:18); also mediums and wizards (Leviticus 20:27)
(Note these verses were used to justify the witch trials in Europe and
Salem, Massachusetts).

* Any man who conducted homosexual activity was to be put to death
(Leviticus 20:13)

* Adultery. Leviticus 20:10-16 proscribes the death penalty for the following
liaisons:

--a man and his neighbor's wife (death for both)
--a man and his mother-in-law (death for both)
--a man and his daughter-in-law (death for both)
--a man and a beast (death for both)
--a woman and a beast (death for both)

{Note: Clinton is ok -- because he did not have adultery with a MARRIED woman}


* A husband who found that his bride was not a virgin on her wedding
day was to have her stoned to death at her father's door (Deut 22:21).

* A man who rapes a betrothed (married or engaged) woman, is to be put to
death (Deut 22:25). However if the woman is a virgin and NOT betrothed
to any man, then the rapist shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver,
and he shall marry the woman. (However, because he has "humbled" her in
this way, he is not allowed to divorce her.)


(2)The gospels present the common ancient view that various displays of
mental illness (ie what would be today diagnosed as schizophrenia, epilepsy,
etc) were ALWAYS cases of demonic possession. That is, ALL of Jesus' cures were
described as freeing the victim from the demons possessing them (and
NEVER refer to a mental, or natural illness). Historians can show that the
general beliefs in faith healings and demonic possession of the early
Christians were essentially identical to those of the Jews and pagans of
the ancient world


Mark describes one scene, where demons from a possessed man are
transferred by Jesus into a herd of pigs, which then plunge off a cliff.

"And when he [Jesus] was come to the other side into the country of the
Gerasenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the
tombs, exceedingly fierce, so that no man might pass by that way. And
behold, they cried out, saying, 'What have we to do with thee, Jesus,
thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?
And there was a good way off from them an herd of many swine feeding."

"So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to
go away into the herd of swine. And he said unto them, Go. And when
they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the
whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and
perished in the waters." (Luke 8:26-33,Mark 5:1-13)

In Galilee, one of Jesus' main occupation was said to be from casting
out demons:

*"They brought to him all who were ill or possessed by devils...He
healed many who suffered from various diseases, and drove out many
devils." (Mark 1:32-4; Matthew 8:16, Luke 4:40-1)

*"So all through Galilee he went...casting out the devils."
(Mark 1:39, Matthew 4:23)


(3) Verses in the bible were used to prove the earth was stationary in space (with all celestial bodies revolving around the earth as the center of the universe) and for some, the earth was flat.


* I Chronicles 16:30 (RSV) states, "Worship the Lord in holy array; tremble
before him, all the earth; yea, the world stands firm, never to be moved".
(See Section VI, Chapter 1 for other references.)

* Joshua ordered the sun and moon to stand still in order to give his
hebrew troops more light to kill the inhabitants of Gibeon, saying:
"Sun, stand thou still at Gibeon; and thou, Moon in the valley of
Ajalon. And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the [hebrew]
nation took vengeance on their enemies..." (Joshua 10:12-3)

* In Psalms 93:1, one reads, "The Lord reigneth, he is robed in
majesty; the Lord is robed, he is girded with strength. Yea, the
world is established; it shall never be moved... (see also Psalms 96:10,
and 104:5).

* The earth was viewed as supported by giant pillars below it:
"...For the pillars of the earth are the Lord's, and on them he has set
the world" (1 Samuel 2:8, see also Micah 6:2)

Biblical passages in the Old and New Testament also implied that the earth
was flat, but this was less direct:

* The prophet Daniel described a vision of a giant tree situated in the
middle of the earth, whose "top reached heaven and was visible to the end of the
whole earth." (Daniel 4:10-11). Daniel is clearly envisioning a flat earth,
since this giant tree was visible throughout the entire world. Likewise, Matthew
viewed the earth as flat when he stated that "the devil took him [Jesus] to a
very high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and the glory
of them." (see Matthew 4:8) [He would have had to have X-ray vision to see all
the kingdoms on a round earth - why would he need to be on a very high mountain
for this?]


((4) The "Good Book" sets down a precedent for incest:

"And they made their father drink wine that night; and the firstborn
went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay
down, nor when she rose.

And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the
younger, Behold, I lay yester night with my father; let us make him
drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that
we may preserve seed of our father.

And they made their father drink wine that night also; and the younger
arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when
she arose.

Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father." (Genesis
19:33-6)

Because God never expressed displeasure at the above scene, this led
some later Christian theologians to question whether or not a sin had indeed
taken place by Lot's daughters.

(5)How about the Jepthah story?


Judges 11:30-35 tells how a Israelite judge named Jephthah, made the
following vow to God.In exchange for his victory over his military enemies,
he promised to offer as a burnt offering "whatsoever cometh forth of the
doors of my house to meet me". He wins the battle, but upon returning home,
his daughter and only child comes out to greet him.

Horrified at his promise, Jephthah proceeded to tell his daughter of his
pact with God. They both agree that a promise to the Lord must be fulfilled.

Unlike with Abraham and Isaac, NO angel of the Lord arrives to stay
Jephthah's hand--and his daughter is faithfully and obediently burnt as a
sacrifice to God!

(6)There are two Creation stoies in Genesis and they are in conflict with each other,

* In Genesis-Chapter 1, animals were created BEFORE man.
* In Genesis-Chapter 2, this order is reversed--with man created before the
animals!

and conflict with modern astronomy:

* According to Genesis, the earth and heaven were created on Day 1, and the sun,
moon, and other stars were created on Day 4. Modern astronomy teaches that earth
is an ORDINARY planet that was not created EARLIER than the sun and the rest of
the universe! (Indeed modern astronomy teaches that our solar system which
includes the earth, is billions of years younger than the rest of the universe.)

Enough? I'll stop...

====================================

excerpts taken from:

<a href="http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/index.html" target="_blank">http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/index.html</a>


Section II, Chapter 5 -- Miracles
Section VI, Chapter 3 -- Ethics
Section V, Chapter 12 -- Trial of Galileo
Section VI, Chapter 9 -- Christian Attitudes towards Women
Section VIII, Chapter 3 -- Science vs Creationism

Sojourner

[ April 01, 2002: Message edited by: Sojourner553 ]</p>

Jayhawker Soule

Leaving Timothy, we find in Peter:

... none of which, by the way, applies to the 32000 Midianite virgins taken as booty.

never been there

Oh crap! That means nearly all of us at some point in our lives.

Sojourner553

It says only CHILDREN can't be gluttons or drunks!
I don't see anything there about ADULTS. Let's see: I think a barmitzvah is around 13 years of age right (which is the Jewish tradition when one becomes an adult.)

So you're probably ok!

I still think it's the Sabbath rule that gets most people killed.

Ha, ha. Just showing I will jump in there to help out the opposing side. Where were the Christian apologists on this one?

Sojourner

[ April 01, 2002: Message edited by: Sojourner553 ]</p>