Primordial Groove

Perfect!

Vicar Philip

Church went OK today, but I don't think it had the desired effect my wife was hoping for.

I think she was hoping I would hear our old pastor's sermon and instantly become filled with rapture!! It was nice to hear a familiar voice, as he is a very eloquent speaker. His prose was as wonderful as ever, but the message just rang hollow.

He gave us a tour of the church, and agreed to see us in the near future. Afterwards we (my family) went to a restaurant for lunch. My wife seemed like she wanted to say something. Eventually she asked me: "So what did you think?" I said, "It was nice to hear his voice again." She says, "I mean, what did you think about his sermon?" "It was a sermon," I said.

That was pretty much it. I know she's crestfallen and let down. On the way home I told her she seemed to be troubled, and she said she was. I said, "I'm still here. I'm not going anywhere." She gave me a sad, knowing look.

So I guess we'll see where we go from here. I'm hoping that when we meet with the pastor, he can impart to her my sincerity about staying with her and the family. To me, I haven't changed; but I can see that in her eyes, part of me has gone forever. I do think she can tell that. I know it too. I do not think I will EVER go back to thinking about Christianity like I used to.

I'll keep you all posted on our progress. Thanks for caring.

Darren

Jagged

Darren, you sound like a very sweet man, I truly hope your wife realizes that Christian or not, she has got a good thing going with you.

But please do not believe that you are responsible to "make her happy" on the basis of your religious belief/observance, or lack thereof. If you have been straight with her and she is not accepting this, there is a problem, but it is not with you. If she feels that she is not capable of being happy with a partner who is not a Christian, well, you'll have to deal with that. But DO NOT try to "keep up an act" because you feel guilty about it. You have no reason to feel guilty about who you are and what you believe. You cannot be less than you are, and don't you want her to care for the *real* you, and not some daydream she has of you?

I would *really* encourage you to find a professional couples therapist. The right person could be a lot of help. Not saying that would give you any guarantees, this is a serious situation. But just a much greater chance of progress than you have seeing an untrained pastor.

HelenM

Does he know about your deconversion yet or are you waiting until you meet with him to tell him? (Or waiting until the children aren't with you, to discuss it?)

I would imagine he will be concerned about your loss of faith but at the same time he will not want to see it breaking up your family. So I hope he can help your wife see it doesn't have to do that.

It doesn't make any sense, does it, that whatever reasons you have not to believe would have just 'vanished' at the sound of your former pastor's voice? I can see why your wife would hope such a thing but really, you'd need to sit down with the pastor or some other Christian and have them satisfactorily respond to your objections to the faith, I would think, before there would be any possibility of you believing again.

I think it's good that you can see your wife's point of view - i.e. 'a part of you is gone forever'. However, what she needs to see is it's not the part that loves her - or at least, not because of this. Obviously this whole thing is putting a big strain on your relationship right now. But that's not because your change in belief has caused you not to love her; it's because she is being irrational and reactive in her response to your change in belief. Anyway I'm glad if she wasn't angry at you yesterday, but rather she was just sad that things have changed and aren't going to revert back to how they used to be on hearing one sermon.

Helen

p.s. edited to add: it sounds to me like you handled the day very well yesterday, managing to stay calm in the face of your wife's disappointment.

[ November 25, 2002: Message edited by: HelenM ]</p>

HelenM

I disagree. You can't know that and 'untrained' is very misleading. Some pastors have a lot of experience with couples - that counts for at least as much as 'professional therapist training' imo. And some 'professional couples therapists' are useless. Perhaps you've had bad experience with pastors and good ones with professional therapists. I respect that, if you have and it's fine to say that here, of course. But that isn't valid grounds for concluding all pastors are way worse at helping couples who are having difficulties, than all professional therapists.

Anyway, x-xian said that this particular pastor has helped them in the past with a marriage issue. So, he has a good track record and it sounds like they both like him. That counts for way more than qualifications on a bit of paper.

Plus, his wife might insist on seeing a Christian. If there's already a Christian x-xian is willing to try talking to, why not?

Helen

pescifish

HelenM,
With all due respect,
these two back to back posts seem contradictory: In the statement above, you chastise JLP's characterization of a pastor's counseling because you say "she can't know that" and her grounds for concluding "all pastors are way worse" is invalid. And yet in the post above it, you make your own assumptions about what the christian pastor may or may not be concerned about. Just because you are a christian does not mean that you can predict or assume how all other christians will act. We have seen countless times in this forum how many of our members have found themselves in specific, real situations where their experiences are very different than what you have projected as typical christian behavior.

I'm personally very glad that x-xian feels comfortable with this pastor and that his wife appears to be willing to work within this context. The atttitude may have been very different for both of them had x-xian's wife insisted on the other parish where viewpoints seemed more rigid. I am not speaking as a moderator in this instance, because in this instance I hope your persistent, rosey viewpoint of christian behavior will prevail as it appears it may.

I'm speaking as a non-theist who comes to this particular forum to discuss these sorts of issues with people who have had similar experiences as mine and may understand, through their similar attitude, what I may be feeling.

There is no real need for a general discussion about the relative merits of professional vs. minister counseling training. Or what it is we assume or don't assume any such counselor will do. x-xian's situation is a specific one and we can all focus on what events he chooses to share with us for our continued help and support.

[ November 25, 2002: Message edited by: pescifish ]</p>

HelenM

pescifish if you really want this thread to be about x-xian and helping him deal with his situation, I suggest you refrain from taking space on it to try to prove I contradicted myself. Since that has absolutely nothing to do with him.

I don't believe I did but I don't think this thread is the place to discuss it.

Helen

[ November 25, 2002: Message edited by: HelenM ]</p>

Goliath

Helen,

How many times do we have to remind you that your opinions about xianity are irrelevant to this topic (as well as to many other SL&S topics)?!

Our experiences with xians will trump your opinions about xianity each and every single time.

Sincerely,

Goliath

HelenM

I have experiences too. I only post what is consistent with my experiences. Perhaps you think that my own personal beliefs so 'taint' my experience that they are irrelevant to nontheists. I disagree.

Helen

[ November 25, 2002: Message edited by: HelenM ]</p>

Jagged

Helen ditch the high horse we're all trying to help.

I concede that in general pastors have good people skills, which is of primary importance for a good theraputic experience. And that *some* clinical psychologists come up short in this area. But my personal experience has been the *opposite*, and a combination of good people skills and professional training will put you light years ahead of a lay pastor in a counseling situation. In the church the matters of the mind are glossed over as *all* relating to spirituality. They have no idea how to address problems from a non-theistic perspective. Which would be one thing if you were both of the same faith... but I think a professional therapist is a better "neutral" place to start since you have differing beliefs about god. There are plenty of professionals who happen to be theists. But starting off with the *minister* of *her church* in a situation like this... does not sound at all good to me.