Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Megusic · 12-28-2002, 10:28 PM

Black permanent marker works very well. Next time I take my change to the bank, my coins will be secular, ready to be recirculated.

This won't count as like, vandalism to government property, will it?

Krieger · 12-28-2002, 10:43 PM

Dunno, but you're "anti-American" now for sure!

lisarea · 12-28-2002, 11:02 PM

No, it's not vandalism of government property. I'm thinking I heard somewhere that this had to do with the gubmint not having the actual metal to back up the currency.

At any rate, you are not allowed to deface currency for fraudulent purposes, like adding zeroes and stuff, but it's legal to add moustaches and lipstick to the presidents, and to cross out mottoes and such. I always cross out the motto on paper currency, and every now and again add a moustache.

Please note, however, that just because something isn't illegal doesn't mean you won't be harangued or even arrested for it. I believe individuals can refuse to accept the money, and there was a case with those "I Grew Hemp" bubbles where the people stamping the currency were threatened by law enforcement.

Shadowy Man · 12-29-2002, 09:49 AM

It is illegal to deface the money in such a way as to make it unfit for circulation.

Of course, some people may make the argument that without the words "In God We Trust" money is unfit for circulation.

I would not make that argument.

lisarea · 12-29-2002, 10:03 AM

I'm not aware of any US code that refers to making money unfit for circulation, but Section 18, Title 331 says this:

Quote:

Section 331. Mutilation, diminution, and falsification of coins

Whoever fraudulently alters, defaces, mutilates, impairs, diminishes, falsifies, scales, or lightens any of the coins coined at the mints of the United States, or any foreign coins which are by law made current or are in actual use or circulation as money
within the United States; or

Whoever fraudulently possesses, passes, utters, publishes, or sells, or attempts to pass, utter, publish, or sell, or brings into
the United States, any such coin, knowing the same to be altered, defaced, mutilated, impaired, diminished, falsified, scaled, or lightened -
Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.

The law is not an exact science, of course, and it seems to be fairly common for judges to just...well...make stuff up.

But the way I read this, the word 'fraudulently' is key, and the motivation for crossing out the national motto is not fraudulent.

If there's some other relevant code, could you point me to it? I've found a lot of opinions and such, but they only vaguely refer to 'the law,' so I'm not going to believe them until I see the actual laws.

Toto · 12-29-2002, 11:48 AM

God Off Money dot com has a good FAQ on these questions. They were forced to stop selling stamps for people to use on bills, but you can order a stamp of your own.

Shadowy Man · 12-29-2002, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lisarea
I'm not aware of any US code that refers to making money unfit for circulation, but Section 18, Title 331 says this:

Section 331 refers only to coins. Read on...

Section 18, Part I, Chapter 17, Section 333:
(emphasis mine)

Quote:

Sec. 333. - Mutilation of national bank obligations

Whoever mutilates, cuts, defaces, disfigures, or perforates, or unites or cements together, or does any other thing to any bank bill, draft, note, or other evidence of debt issued by any national banking association, or Federal Reserve bank, or the Federal Reserve System, with intent to render such bank bill, draft, note, or other evidence of debt unfit to be reissued, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than six months, or both.

lisarea · 12-29-2002, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Shadowy Man
Section 331 refers only to coins. Read on...

DUDE!

I have no earthly idea how I missed that.

Thanks.

BTW, I agree that this still doesn't make it unfit for circulation.

Shake · 12-30-2002, 10:47 AM

There's more about defacing currency on the Where's George homepage

Edited to add: Don't forget about God off money!

managalar · 01-01-2003, 12:10 AM

its a disgrace though about the coins, they last longer.

thousands of years in the future, people are going look at our coins and do a double take when they see 2003 In God We Trust.

They are going to wonder how they got to where they are with that attitude still prevailing.

just my 2 cp

12-28-2002, 10:28 PM	#1
Megusic Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: OH Posts: 1,292	I figured out how to get "In God We Trust" off our money Black permanent marker works very well. Next time I take my change to the bank, my coins will be secular, ready to be recirculated. This won't count as like, vandalism to government property, will it?

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12-28-2002, 10:43 PM	#2
Krieger Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: ... Posts: 2,191	Dunno, but you're "anti-American" now for sure!

12-28-2002, 11:02 PM	#3
lisarea Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Broomfield, Colorado, USA Posts: 5,550	No, it's not vandalism of government property. I'm thinking I heard somewhere that this had to do with the gubmint not having the actual metal to back up the currency. At any rate, you are not allowed to deface currency for fraudulent purposes, like adding zeroes and stuff, but it's legal to add moustaches and lipstick to the presidents, and to cross out mottoes and such. I always cross out the motto on paper currency, and every now and again add a moustache. Please note, however, that just because something isn't illegal doesn't mean you won't be harangued or even arrested for it. I believe individuals can refuse to accept the money, and there was a case with those "I Grew Hemp" bubbles where the people stamping the currency were threatened by law enforcement.

12-29-2002, 09:49 AM	#4
Shadowy Man Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Shadowy Planet Posts: 7,585	It is illegal to deface the money in such a way as to make it unfit for circulation. Of course, some people may make the argument that without the words "In God We Trust" money is unfit for circulation. I would not make that argument.

12-29-2002, 11:48 AM	#6
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	God Off Money dot com has a good FAQ on these questions. They were forced to stop selling stamps for people to use on bills, but you can order a stamp of your own.

12-30-2002, 10:47 AM	#9
Shake Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Folding@Home in upstate NY Posts: 14,394	There's more about defacing currency on the Where's George homepage Edited to add: Don't forget about God off money!

01-01-2003, 12:10 AM	#10
managalar Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Lincoln, NE, United States Posts: 160	its a disgrace though about the coins, they last longer. thousands of years in the future, people are going look at our coins and do a double take when they see 2003 In God We Trust. They are going to wonder how they got to where they are with that attitude still prevailing. just my 2 cp

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