Godless Wonder

I was involved in a discussion with a Christian, and was trying to figure out how faith works. Not having much luck.

I am not able to see the difference between faith and a very strong kind of pretending to believe. People tend, when talking about faith, to say things like "you have to want to believe", or "you have to choose to believe,"

The analogy was made that faith is like swimming for the first time. You don't think you can do it until you try it. This only makes me think that faith is like pretending, but pretending so well that the pretender deceives himself.

For me, there doesn't seem to be much choice in what I believe. I _find out_ what I believe. If there is not enough evidence for me to decide one way or another, I say "I don't know". It may be that I _wish_ that one outcome was the truth, but wishing so doesn't make it so for me, and I cannot "choose to believe." any old arbitrary thing. And if I tried to do it, I would merely be pretending, and there would always be a little voice in the back of my head saying "you don't really know."

For example, I cannot choose to believe that 2+2=5, and then actually _do_ it... actually believe it. Likewise I cannot choose to believe that I am actually George W. Bush and then actually believe it. (Back to the swimming analogy, trying to swim in that water, one finds oneself sinking.)

So there seems to be a difficulty scale for beliefs. Some things are very easy to believe (that 2+2=4), and some things are harder to believe (that the theory of general relativity works, odd as it is.) and some things are impossible, barring mental illness (that I am actually an ancient Mayan Emperor, time travelling to the future to chat on the net.)

For me, believing in Jesus for example, as many Christians are able to do, or Zeus, is of this "impossible" level of difficulty.

So, for Christians, is the level of difficulty of belief great, and faith allows you to overcome this difficulty? Or is the level of difficulty very easy, so there is nothing to overcome?

When faithful people have doubts (do they have doubts?) doesn't the existence of these doubts, and their suppression, indicate that at some level faith is just pretending these doubts don't exist, or just willfully ignoring them? This would seem to be an awful lot like pretending that something is true, rather than actually believing it to be true

I guess I am just having a really hard time wrapping my mind around the idea that some people have the capability of choosing what to believe. I don't seem to have this ability... I _find out_ what I believe.

Maybe the faithful _find out_ what they believe too, but simply arrive at a different conclusion. This would help me to think that most of the world isn't crazy, if that is true. But I get the sense maybe it isn't true, since there is so much talk of "choosing" beliefs and so on wrt faith.

So what the heck is faith and how does it work? If I have to "choose" to believe something, then I already don't believe it, or else I wouldn't have to try to "choose." The fact that I would have to "choose" precludes me from believing it. But it seems to work differently for others.

emotional

I didn't believe in life after death in the past. Then I was overcome by the fear of final death. So I chose to believe in life after death. I took a few books about near-death experiences and spiritualism, such as Raymond Moody's Life After Life and Colin Wilson's After Life, to make myself more convinced, taking care not to read opposing/sceptical views. And now I believe in life after death.

On the other hand, I could never get myself to believe prayer works. The ineffectuality of prayer just stares me in the face.

There is no watertight evidence for God and the afterlife. I just believe. I believe, therefore it is true. It's called voluntarist fideism.

Godless Wonder

You may not be taking enough care not to read skeptical views, if you're hanging around here reading what I just wrote. :-)

Striel

Faith is what happens when you pretend to believe something for so long that you start to believe it. You begin to have "faith" that it is true. Hope has a lot to do with it.

JaeIsGod

I tested this out once. I tried to convince myself that there was a conspiracy out there just to make my life miserable. Somehow I actually started to believe it and it took me quite a while to get rid of it.

So kids , dont try this at home =]

dangin

You realize that you have just described lying to yourself as something that strengthens your faith. You're the most honest religious person I've met. Bu the way, in the last few months brain surgery was being performed and the doctor touched a part of the brain in the conscious patient who said, "what'd ya do, I'm floating 6 feet above the table"? The doctor then touched the area again and the patient again reported the "Out of Body experience". All that near death crap is anecdotal evidence of what happens as blood supply to certain brain centers diminishes. Accept final death and get the most out of life now. It's all you've got.

emotional

I may not have been too careful.

dangin

And let me welcome you here (after almost 2000 posts) to the land where we are happy to point out where science exceeds religion (which is in every case).

emotional

No, I meant I may not have been too careful when I started this debate in the first place. Belief in life after death is one that I can leave at my own peril; it is non-negotiable. No scientific evidence, verified or unverified, can be allowed to take precedence over the existence of life after death. I therefore discontinue my involvement in this thread.

penumbra

Delusion, a simple form of self-hypnosis, often resulting from a lack of self-esteem or self-awareness that leads to an overwhelming desire/need not to have to take full and compete personal responsibilty for the direction of one's own life. Faith becomes the self-induced drug that calms the paranoia.