Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Echo · 02-22-2002, 11:17 AM

I think I can understand a little of what Orpheous is trying to say. Whether we realize it or not, I do think we have a tendency to selectively allow jabs, insults, and blatant generalizations slide by when they pertain to Christians, while being more vigilant in attacking simliar statements made about members of other religions.

I've noticed this a lot in the atheist chatroom I frequent. Comments along the lines of "Christians are irrational...christians want to bully everyone into believing what they believe..christians are superstitious people who believe in a giant sky fairy" are tolerated, but any comment perceived as even remotely disparaging towards buddhists, jews, pagans..well, the person making that comment would be rebuffed so vehemently that he would probably never show his face in the chat room again.

In a country with an population that is overwhelmingly Christian, I think we tend to view the Jews and members of other non-Christian religions as our allies against Christians and then show them favoritism, perhaps unintentionally.

Anyhow, this is just something I've noticed, even in myself.

Megatron · 02-22-2002, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by crazyfingers:
WOW, this topic has taken on a 2nd life.

There are a lot of people who consider themselves to be secular Jews. I have several friends who are like this. They come from the Jewish cultural tradition and enjoy these traditions. So to them to be Jewish can be to believe in the Jewish religion or to follow the Jewish cultural tradition or both.

For these friends, they consider themselves to be Jews because they follow the jewish cultural traditions but they do not believe in a god.

Perhaps there are secular jews and religious jews and perhaps they have different definitions but secular jews will call themselves jews and it's hard for me to say that anyone should claim that they aren't.

That's basically what I was trying to say, but I sorta flew off the handle in the process... so... what crazyfingers said!

callina · 02-22-2002, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by cjr1851

I my experience there are religious Jews and nonreligious Jews. My mother is a nonreligious Jew. I have questioned her about her feelings of 'Jewishness' and she informed me that being Jewish has nothing to do with religion "it is a feeling".

Do you mind telling me if you consider yourself a Jew? My husband is an atheist Jew (if you think that is an oxymoron, you have to stop thinking that being a Jew is like being a Christian, the sense of community is very different. You should check out some of the non-theistic Jewish groups like <a href="http://www.shj.org/)" target="_blank">http://www.shj.org/)</a> I am not Jewish -- basic atheist shikse -- but hubby wants our son to "be Jewish". He even had him converted, since I was not going to convert any time soon. Can you pass on a sense of being a Jew to a child without dragging them to temple and sending them to Hebrew school?

Mountainbike Racer · 02-22-2002, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gurdur:


Gosh, first off you compare Jews with the KKK, now you complain I'm being rude to you.

Your very first post, wasted on such offensive comparisons?

In case you didn't notice, we have a Welcome forum here.

[ February 22, 2002: Message edited by: Gurdur ]

I guess part of that Welcome forum would tell me "Watch what you say, if you ask a question or make a comparison that my not be politically correct, you may offend GURDUR." oooooh

If you can't understand a comparison between ethnically based Judaism and ethnically based KKK, then your just a plain dolt. I'm not running for any political seat, and if you want to dwell on a side issue as to how I made the comparison, instead of addressing the point behind it, go ahead, waste your time. If anything, I used that contrast to show that if is based on ethnicity, then it is suspect.

Mountainbike Racer · 02-22-2002, 12:53 PM

Oh yea, you can whine about my posts all you like, I'll be here all weekend having more fun that you....

Try being nice Gurdur, it helps the communication process.

crazyfingers · 02-22-2002, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mountainbike Racer:
Oh yea, you can whine about my posts all you like, I'll be here all weekend having more fun that you....

* Snip photo *

Try being nice Gurdur, it helps the communication process.

Mountainbike Racer,

Have fun over the weekend. When you get back please try not to start off by comparing another ethnic or cultural group to the KKK without good reason.

emotional · 02-22-2002, 02:48 PM

Judaism is an ethnocentric kernel around which a religion developed. The God of Israel was the religion for the ancient Jews just as much as the Babylonian deities for the Babylonians. Except that this God had the upper hand of being a single god, throwing out all its competitors in the divine "meme pool", and so survived up until our modern times (a lamentable fact - we atheists are working on fixing that

).

The Jewish religion is ethnocentric (or read: racist), as is clear from passages in the Hebrew Bible (the goy qadosh or "holy nation" proclaimations, for instance) and even more severely in the Talmud. Judaism differs from Christianity and Islam is that it is a religion of a nation, unlike those other two, which appeal to the whole of humanity and seek supra-national, universal acceptance.

Judaism, like Hinduism, is not just a religion like Islam or Christianity. A Jew or a Hindu is also a nationality. A non-religious Jew is therefore as normal as a non-religious Frenchman. And it isn't a new phenomenon either: in the time of the Second Temple, before the great dispersion, the Jewish rabbis were in fits over the fact that most of the Jewish population in Palestine did not observe religious law. As it is today in modern Israel.

I once felt, quite like Orpheous says, that the term non-religious Jew was an oxymoron; that was one of the chief reasons why I became an Orthodox Jewish theist in 1997. But I never really whole-heartedly believed in the sovereignty of God, and I always had an inner rebellion against those robotic commands (donning the phylacteries seemed exciting at first, but after a few hundred mornings I felt like a complete idiot for wrapping those strips of black leather round my arm). When I left the religion, the first question I asked myself was how I could define myself as a Jew without religion. It doesn't trouble me now any longer, because I know the Jewish saga of "a nation and her God" isn't an original, unmixed creation, but a mixture of various sources, like every other religion. And most of the festivals of Judaism were seasonal celebrations before they were reworked into worship of the One True Invisible Idol (that's right, Judaism, like Christianity, and Islam as well, has pagan roots which the monotheists tried to suppress but which still show clearly).

(edited to fix omissions, typos &c)

[ February 22, 2002: Message edited by: devnet ]

sighhswolf · 02-22-2002, 02:50 PM

Hummm,
This topic did sort of take a different turn didnt it.
It is rather perplexing when there are attacks
on christians and christianity enmass, but there is a definate withdrawal or repulsion when those of Jewish lineage are treated in the same manner.
I am as far from being a racist as you can get, but I see a conditioned response politically motivated, in almost every exchange concerning Judaism, and Jewish culture in general.

Does anyone else see the significance of this?

Anyone can convert to Judaism, but as one poster
indicated why do the time when as a gentile you are only expected to follow the Noahide laws, the 7 laws given to Noah, to assure yourself of a place in the coming kingdom of god on earth.
Ever take the time to actually read the Rabbinic
laws?
Man, I dont think I could even read them all in a day much less remember to follow all that crap!

I am afraid though that any criticism of Jewish culture or history will result in the same kind of exchange as we have seen here on this thread.
Speaking from the stand point of an observer, it seems that at least here in the US we have been politically conditioned not to question policy
with regard to the relationship of our government
and the Jewish government.
And along with that conditioning goes the natural tendency to be somewhat defensive concerning the historic treatment of the Jews.
We have been taught and conditioned to be sympathetic to the plight of the Jews, and antisemitism is not tolerated well, for good reason !!!
I would offer though that there are times when we seem to take this to extremes and become overly
sensitive to the issues involved.
We must remember that the communities of the different religious convictions that exist here in a free society are much different than those who exist in their own orthodox populations in their homelands.
The melting pot creates a kinship within communities, and helps to establish ties with other communities, resulting in a moderate view
of life and relationships on a cultural level.

It destorts and diminishes the cultural lines that would not be crossed in orthodox and fundamentalist populations in their homelands.
In effect they become American citizens, and that above all is the cultural "face" of the community.
Americans first.........jews, muslims, buddhists,
taoists second.

I can say from experience that the lifestyle we enjoy here, and the politically correct atmosphere
in which we live, is not shared by fundamentalist
religious populations in other countries.
Wolf

Gurdur · 02-22-2002, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally whined by Mountainbike Racer:
.....
I guess part of that Welcome forum would tell me "Watch what you say, if you ask a question or make a comparison that my not be politically correct, you may offend GURDUR." oooooh

heh, just how old are you, really, troll ?

Quote:

If you can't understand a comparison between ethnically based Judaism and ethnically based KKK, then your just a plain dolt.

This is very funny, since the KKK only demand a vaguely looking "white" skin colour.
Ethnicity per se is not a criterion, unless you believe that "whites" form a distinct ethnic group of their own, in which case you severely need a mite of education.

Quote:

I'm not running for any political seat,

Just as well; but if even Strom Thurmond could make it, you might have a chance too.

Quote:

and if you want to dwell on a side issue as to how I made the comparison, instead of addressing the point behind it, go ahead, waste your time. If anything, I used that contrast to show that if is based on ethnicity, then it is suspect.

You're whinging far too much.

Your logic of argument was simply defective.

Quote:

Originally whinged by Mountainbike Racer:

Oh yea, you can whine about my posts all you like, I'll be here all weekend having more fun that you....

Somehow I doubt that; but I won't bother letting you know what I've got going on this weekend....

Quote:

Try being nice Gurdur, it helps the communication process.

Be nice? To you?

Naw, I just don't like twits.

Mountainbike Racer · 02-22-2002, 03:49 PM

Gurdur,

I didn't come here to have some ego contest with people here. If I offended you with the comparison, sorry, I didn't think people seemed so sensitive in other posts. It was truly only to show that I believe such divisions by race are wrong. I was apparently unclear as you then compared me to Jesse Helms. Shees.

So I'll agree to use a bit more tact in the future, I just hope you will let it go and lighten up on me a bit. I am in no way a racist and republicans make me sick.

Hope you have a good weekend too, I'm going to heaven on earth for a mountan bike.

Ewan.

02-22-2002, 02:48 PM	#57
emotional Banned Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Boxing ring of HaShem, Jesus and Allah Posts: 1,945	Judaism is an ethnocentric kernel around which a religion developed. The God of Israel was the religion for the ancient Jews just as much as the Babylonian deities for the Babylonians. Except that this God had the upper hand of being a single god, throwing out all its competitors in the divine "meme pool", and so survived up until our modern times (a lamentable fact - we atheists are working on fixing that ). The Jewish religion is ethnocentric (or read: racist), as is clear from passages in the Hebrew Bible (the goy qadosh or "holy nation" proclaimations, for instance) and even more severely in the Talmud. Judaism differs from Christianity and Islam is that it is a religion of a nation, unlike those other two, which appeal to the whole of humanity and seek supra-national, universal acceptance. Judaism, like Hinduism, is not just a religion like Islam or Christianity. A Jew or a Hindu is also a nationality. A non-religious Jew is therefore as normal as a non-religious Frenchman. And it isn't a new phenomenon either: in the time of the Second Temple, before the great dispersion, the Jewish rabbis were in fits over the fact that most of the Jewish population in Palestine did not observe religious law. As it is today in modern Israel. I once felt, quite like Orpheous says, that the term non-religious Jew was an oxymoron; that was one of the chief reasons why I became an Orthodox Jewish theist in 1997. But I never really whole-heartedly believed in the sovereignty of God, and I always had an inner rebellion against those robotic commands (donning the phylacteries seemed exciting at first, but after a few hundred mornings I felt like a complete idiot for wrapping those strips of black leather round my arm). When I left the religion, the first question I asked myself was how I could define myself as a Jew without religion. It doesn't trouble me now any longer, because I know the Jewish saga of "a nation and her God" isn't an original, unmixed creation, but a mixture of various sources, like every other religion. And most of the festivals of Judaism were seasonal celebrations before they were reworked into worship of the One True Invisible Idol (that's right, Judaism, like Christianity, and Islam as well, has pagan roots which the monotheists tried to suppress but which still show clearly). (edited to fix omissions, typos &c) [ February 22, 2002: Message edited by: devnet ]</p>

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02-22-2002, 11:17 AM	#51
Echo Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Winter Park, Fl USA Posts: 411	I think I can understand a little of what Orpheous is trying to say. Whether we realize it or not, I do think we have a tendency to selectively allow jabs, insults, and blatant generalizations slide by when they pertain to Christians, while being more vigilant in attacking simliar statements made about members of other religions. I've noticed this a lot in the atheist chatroom I frequent. Comments along the lines of "Christians are irrational...christians want to bully everyone into believing what they believe..christians are superstitious people who believe in a giant sky fairy" are tolerated, but any comment perceived as even remotely disparaging towards buddhists, jews, pagans..well, the person making that comment would be rebuffed so vehemently that he would probably never show his face in the chat room again. In a country with an population that is overwhelmingly Christian, I think we tend to view the Jews and members of other non-Christian religions as our allies against Christians and then show them favoritism, perhaps unintentionally. Anyhow, this is just something I've noticed, even in myself.

02-22-2002, 12:53 PM	#55
Mountainbike Racer Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 29	Oh yea, you can whine about my posts all you like, I'll be here all weekend having more fun that you.... Try being nice Gurdur, it helps the communication process.

02-22-2002, 02:50 PM	#58
sighhswolf Regular Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Charlotte,NC USA Posts: 379	Hummm, This topic did sort of take a different turn didnt it. It is rather perplexing when there are attacks on christians and christianity enmass, but there is a definate withdrawal or repulsion when those of Jewish lineage are treated in the same manner. I am as far from being a racist as you can get, but I see a conditioned response politically motivated, in almost every exchange concerning Judaism, and Jewish culture in general. Does anyone else see the significance of this? Anyone can convert to Judaism, but as one poster indicated why do the time when as a gentile you are only expected to follow the Noahide laws, the 7 laws given to Noah, to assure yourself of a place in the coming kingdom of god on earth. Ever take the time to actually read the Rabbinic laws? Man, I dont think I could even read them all in a day much less remember to follow all that crap! I am afraid though that any criticism of Jewish culture or history will result in the same kind of exchange as we have seen here on this thread. Speaking from the stand point of an observer, it seems that at least here in the US we have been politically conditioned not to question policy with regard to the relationship of our government and the Jewish government. And along with that conditioning goes the natural tendency to be somewhat defensive concerning the historic treatment of the Jews. We have been taught and conditioned to be sympathetic to the plight of the Jews, and antisemitism is not tolerated well, for good reason !!! I would offer though that there are times when we seem to take this to extremes and become overly sensitive to the issues involved. We must remember that the communities of the different religious convictions that exist here in a free society are much different than those who exist in their own orthodox populations in their homelands. The melting pot creates a kinship within communities, and helps to establish ties with other communities, resulting in a moderate view of life and relationships on a cultural level. It destorts and diminishes the cultural lines that would not be crossed in orthodox and fundamentalist populations in their homelands. In effect they become American citizens, and that above all is the cultural "face" of the community. Americans first.........jews, muslims, buddhists, taoists second. I can say from experience that the lifestyle we enjoy here, and the politically correct atmosphere in which we live, is not shared by fundamentalist religious populations in other countries. Wolf

02-22-2002, 03:49 PM	#60
Mountainbike Racer Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 29	Gurdur, I didn't come here to have some ego contest with people here. If I offended you with the comparison, sorry, I didn't think people seemed so sensitive in other posts. It was truly only to show that I believe such divisions by race are wrong. I was apparently unclear as you then compared me to Jesse Helms. Shees. So I'll agree to use a bit more tact in the future, I just hope you will let it go and lighten up on me a bit. I am in no way a racist and republicans make me sick. Hope you have a good weekend too, I'm going to heaven on earth for a mountan bike. Ewan.

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