fromtheright

Misso,

In western countries there are plenty of loving Christians (and loving atheists too) that beat their wives into a bloody pulp.

Surely you understand, though, that the difference is that both Muslim doctrine and the state not only don't disapprove of such actions but find it a good thing. Not so, in either Christianity or Western Civilization, despite some caricatures on IIDB or elsewhere.

Jat

You don't know your history, do you? It has only been until very recently that women in our society have even been seen as persons. That they were only seen as property not able to own anything, not even their own bodies. Christians were even prescribed how to beat their wives with a rod of a certain width. The bible itself mainly portrays women as being evil and dirty as well. There are still many Christ sects which treat women as such. It is really only the the cultures which are more secular that women are treated as human beings. If the Church had its way still we would all be living under their "traditional" values and have a return to the Dark Ages as well.

Misso

I know. But then again, not every Islamic state sanctions this. People are always acting like every Islamic man beats his wife nearly to death, and that all Islamic institutions support this. Look at what Kuu posted. It's not as bad as it's made out to be. Your mention of caricatures is ironic in this regard.
I don't mean to say what happens to women in Islamic cultures isn't bad, I do mean to say that you shouldn't stare yourself blind on helping women in Islamic cultures while at the same time completely ignoring similar practices in non-Islamic cultures.
Untill the 1970's, women didn't have the right to vote in Switserland - despite it being one of the oldest, and according to many, one of the best democracies in the world. Now we scream about equal rights for women. It just all seems a bit hypocritical to me.

lunachick

Yes, Genghis Pwn, it is thoroughly despicable. It is also the work of sick extremists.

Did you know that acid regularly gets thrown in womens faces in Mea Sharim, also? Mea Sharim is an orthodox Jewish community in Jerusalem.

I'm not trying to be "politically correct" - a meaningless term that gets bandied about a lot here lately - as it IS completely vile and evil - but Islam is not alone in atrocities committed against women and/or girls/children.

And yes, it IS time something was done - and there ARE people trying to do something. Perhaps you could also lend some support to those organisations that are trying to make a difference. The more help they get - either in manpower or money - the more they are able to do in the long run.

lunachick

Very true. And it was only fairly recently, in Western cultures, that the Police and the Law did more than roll their eyes at spousal abuse. As far as everyone was concerned, that was between a man and his wife; a private matter.

simian

In the US, at least through the 70's if a man killed his wife, it was VERY likely he would not be found guilty of murder. If a woman killed her husband, it was VERY likely she would be found guilty of murder.

In some communities, wife beating (sorry, I initially wrote "spousal abuse" - only the husband beating the wife was acceptable) is still accepted.

I am sure somebody here can come up with a long list of children killed by their parents due to religious beliefs. It would not take much work to find a wife or daughter killed here for sexual activity.

Mennonites and Amish require women's heads to be covered, some Baptist churches still do - it was (I think) the 60's before the Catholic Church allowed women into the Church without their heads being covered.

Hell, there are denominations that would force a woman to die of a tubal pregnancy instead of being allowed to have an abortion.

Sure, the beliefs some Muslim have are unique in treating women like crap.

Simian

(edited to change "Islam" to "the beliefs some Muslims have" - none of the Muslims I have met would consider such treatment of women to be acceptable)

Kuu

It was less then 20 years ago that I left an abusive husband. A social worker at the time told me I should grow up and see what a wonderful man my husband was. She knew he was hitting me but said he was under a lot of stress because of me (at the time I was suffering severe depression)

Up to a few years ago a man could not be prosecuted in Australia for raping his wife.

In 1971 a man called Clifford Bartholomew killed his wife and her sister. He then went into a room and shot dead his 4 year old son and 2 year old nephew. His 19 year old son tried to disarm him and was shot dead. Bartholomew then hunted down his other 5 children as they attempted to flee. For the crime of killing 10 people he served only 8 years. If he had killed 10 total strangers would he have been treated so leniently? No - he wouldn't because the killing of a wife and children isn't seen as being as bad even in our culture (at least by many people).

Our Western culture can be terribly unjust at times.

Derec

Maybe it was so but now it's the other way around. Men that kill their wives get more severe punishment than women. Consider the woman in Texas (the state where most death sentrences are given) that killed her husband with a car and only got 20 years. A man would have gotten life, or quite possibly in Texas, death.

Quote:

In some communities, wife beating (sorry, I initially wrote "spousal abuse" - only the husband beating the wife was acceptable) is still accepted.

In the US, even though about 50% of domestic violence is perpetrated by women, domestic violence is still considered an exclusive domain of men (see the public service announcements or Violence Against Women Act, that conventiently ignores violence against men). So quite the oposite of what you are saying. Women claiming spousal abuse have a better chance of getting the authorities to react, the man still has to fight with incredulity of law enforcement.

UMoC

Godless Dave

I see nothing wrong with condemning a culture that encourages violence against women or creates an environment where it can flourish. Even if Pakistan's version of Islam doesn't condone violence against women, by denying women civil rights it creates an environment in which men can abuse them and get away with it.

I would also be interested in patterns of domestic violence in China, Japan, Vietnam, and the Phillipines.

Misso

American culture encourages, and creates the environment for, violence against everyone. Improvement of the world doesn't start with "the other guy".