Chains

The execution of Jesus Christ have been examined in detail by medical experts. They believe that he suffered one of the most painful forms of capital punishment ever devised by man.

Before the cruxifixion, Jesus had the weight of the world on his shoulders. He clearly had physical symptoms associated with severe stress. The night before the execution, his disciples reported seeing Jesus in "agony" on the Mount of Olives. Not only did he not sleep all night, but he seems to have been sweating profusely. Tiny blood vessels were rupturing in his sweat glands and emitting as great red drops that fell to the ground (see Luke 22:44). This symptom of severe stress is called hematohidrosis.

Jesus was physically exhausted and in danger of going into shock unless he received fluids (which he apparently did not). This is the man that the Roman soldiers tortured.

TORTURE BY BEATING WITH ROMAN SCOURGES -- Having previously been beaten by the Jews, it was now the Romans' turn. The beatings administered by Roman soldiers are well known to be very bloody, leaving lacerations all over the body. Romans designed their whips to cut the flesh from their victim's bodies. These beatings were designed to be painful to the extreme. It would also cause a fluid build up around his lungs. In addition, a crown of thorns was forced into his scalp which was capable of severely irritating major nerves in his head, causing increasing and excruciating pain, as the hours wore on.

In Christ's severely stressed condition, these beatings were easily enough to kill him. His body was horribly bruised, cut and bleeding. Having had no nourishment for many hours, and having lost fluids through profuse sweating and much bleeding, Jesus would have been severely dehydrated. This brutal torture would certainly be sending him into what doctors call "shock," and shock kills.

In addition, Jesus was forced to carry the the wooden beam on which he would die. Imagine the effect of carrying a heavy weight if you were in that condition.

CRUCIFIXION -- Hung completely naked before the crowd, the pain and damage caused by crucifixion were designed to be so devilishly intense that one would continually long for death, but could linger for days with no relief.
According to Dr. Frederick Zugibe, piercing of the median nerve of the hands with a nail can cause pain so incredible that even morphine won't help, "severe, excruciating, burning pain, like lightning bolts traversing the arm into the spinal cord." Rupturing the foot's plantar nerve with a nail would have a similarly horrible effect.

Furthermore, the position of the body on a cross is designed to make it extremely difficult to breathe.

Frederick Farrar described the intended, torturous effect: "For indeed a death by crucifixion seems to include all that pain and death can have of horrible and ghastly--dizziness, cramp, thirst, starvation, sleeplessness, traumatic fever, tetanus, shame, publicity of shame, long continuance of torment, horror of anticipation, mortification of untended wounds--all intensified just up to the point at which they can be endured at all, but all stopping just short of the point which would give to the suffer the relief of unconsciousness."
One doctor has called it "a symphony of pain" produced by every movement, with every breath; even a slight breeze on his skin could bring screaming pain at this point.
Medical examiner, Dr. Frederick Zugibe, believes Christ died from shock due to loss of blood and fluid, plus traumatic shock from his injuries, plus cardiogenic shock causing Christ's heart to fail.

At the ninth hour (the time at which a sacrificial lamb was killed everyday in the Jewish temple), Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" which is translated, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?" and soon died, after saying "It is finished." At about this moment is probably the time when the temple's priestly ram's horn would have been blown that day, announcing that the priests had completed the sacrifice of the lamb for the sins of Israel. Also at that moment, the great, thick curtain that closed the Holy of Holies room from view, ripped open from top to bottom.-Mark 15:34 and Matthew 27:46

James Thompson believed that Jesus did not die from exhaustion, the beatings or the 3 hours of crucifixion, but that he died from agony of mind producing rupture of the heart. His evidence comes from what happened when the Roman soldier pierced Christ's left side. The spear released a sudden flow of blood and water (John 19:34). Not only does this prove that Jesus was already dead when pierced, but Thompson believes it is also evidence of cardiac rupture. Respected physiologist Samuel Houghton believed that only the combination of crucifixion and rupture of the heart could produce this result.
Whatever the final cause of death, there is no question that it was painful beyond words.
Near the end, a criminal beside him mocked, "If you are the Christ, save yourself and us." Little did this sinner know that the man he was speaking to hung there voluntarily. He was speaking to our Creator, capable of releasing all the power in the universe and beyond, and easily saving himself. Jesus remained in this agony and shame, not because he was powerless, but because of his incredible love for humanity. He suffered to provide the needed way of salvation for you and me.

You can read about Christ's death in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John - each of these disciples reported what happened, with greater or lesser details depending on their main focus.

Do you still reject Jesus Christ our saviour?

Tom Sawyer

Yes. What's your point?

Lord Asriel

Yup, me too. See you in RRP.

Chains

My point is to counter some of your beliefs that Jesus was not a proper sacrifice.

Godless Sodomite

I find the very concept of the need for a "Savior" to be absolutely ridiculous. And if you could convince me that I needed one, I can tell you right now that Jesus doesn't fit the bill by any means.

What makes you think that your imaginary friends are superior to my imaginary friends?

Perhaps you are right that Jesus, if he even existed (which I do not grant as given), suffered the most painful form of capital punishment there is. So what? What does that prove? I've no doubt that in spite of everything you've posted other people currently living are suffering more drawn-out and painful deaths than you can ever imagine for Jesus. Should these people be my savior? Or is saviorhood only open to criminal seditionists who suffer the most gruesome death?

Keep your morbid death cult. The living should focus on life.

-Jerry

Tom Sawyer

Assuming that Jesus was actually a real person and the Romans hung him up on the cross, there are still two main questions left:

1) How does this prove that he was some kind of God?

2) If he was God, why did he have to sacrifice himself to get himself to forgive the rest of us? Why not just forgive us without this? What's with the dog and pony show of pretending to die just to do something he was obviously planning on doing anyways?

I know that #2 is actually three questions, but they're all kind of related.

SinEater

Chains -

1. Jesus was almost certainly a myth. No life = No crucifixion = No sacrifice.

2. In the possible, although unlikely, scenario that there was a historical Jesus even vaguely resembling the biblical one, the actual life and death of that man is lost to us historically, making any claims at all about his life and death dubious and speculative, at best.

3. Even assuming, purely for the sake of discussion, that the gospel accounts are reasonably historically accurate, I think describing a death of this type as "he suffered one of the most painful forms of capital punishment ever devised by man." to be questionable at best. Being skinned alive with oyster shells over a period of days and then having your organs pulled from your body and roasted over a fire in full view is probably worse. (Sorry for the gore. This is documented among Eastern Woodland intertribal warfare in North America). Then there are the Aztecs. Skinning alive victims and/or splitting them open with obsidian knives to offer their still-beating hearts to Huitzilopochli is a pretty agonizing and horrific way to shuffle off this mortal coil as well. Just so folks won't think I'm picking on Indigenous Native American cultures, the Europeans are at least as bad, if not worse. The tortures inspired by the Malleus Maleficarum and the Holy Inquisition would make George Romero puke in his soup. These tortures and executions took place over DAYS as a public, and well-attended, spectacle. The cherry on top is of course, burning the heretic (or Jew, or "witch", or Atheist) alive. I'll take crucifixion any day of the week. The list goes on without end.

4. Even assuming, purely for the sake of discussion, that the Theological constructs of the NT are also true, what kind of a "sacrifice" is it, really? Jesus was supposedly GOD ALMIGHTY. Infinite, Omnimax, perfect. 33.3 years as a human schlub like the rest of us, a few days of torture and pain, three days in the grave and then back to GODHOOD. Let's see, an infinity of Paradise and Perfection, a bit of discomfort, followed by an infinity of Paradise and Perfection. Any finite value divided by infinity being effectively zero, where is the "sacrifice"? What did "god" GIVE UP? He is still Omnimax GOD forever and ever, right? There is NO NET CHANGE. AT ALL.

5. We, puppets upon his demented stage, live our tiny finite lives, committing "sins" great and small, but only a finite amount, of course. Then we burn in eternal hellfire, the WORST PUNISHMENT ever conceived by man or god, forever and ever and ever. Sounds like a greater punishment than the "son of god" supposedly received on the cross, don't you think? In comparison, what Jesus got was a mildly infected hangnail, or stubbed toe.

This is the fundamental core of Christian Theology, and why, to any rationally thinking person, it is an enormous pile of steaming tripe; an inhuman, nay, antihuman, cesspool of moral bankruptcy.

And you can put THAT in your pipe and smoke it.

SinEater

(edited for spelling as I am a 'tard)

[ October 18, 2002: Message edited by: SinEater ]

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Radcliffe Emerson

Why don't they go on to mention that Romans did not allow crucifixion victims to be removed from the cross, that their bodies were left up there until they were almost completely rotted away, then thrown to dogs to be eaten?
Or, that, if he was as famous around Galilee as the bible claims, why are there almost no non-Christian writers from that period who mention him in any capacity?

[ October 18, 2002: Message edited by: Radcliffe Emerson ]</p>

rdalin

This is the best you can do to explain away the many differences and discrepancies in the synoptic gospels? Their main focus? One was focusing on one set of last words, the second on a different set of last words, and the third on yet another set - is this really your explanation? Be serious.

Sheep in the big city

True.
And if I were an eternal God spending eternal boredom in heaven I would probably go for a few days of physical pain just for the experience and some entertainment. So I really can't see what the point of the whole story is supposed to be, even if you assume it actually happened