Freethought & Rationalism Archive

David Gould · 06-11-2002, 09:54 PM

I have been having a discussion over at Christian Forums and an interesting idea occurred to me.

There seems to be a big barrier between the believing and not believing ideas - Christians seem to think you can choose to believe; atheists know you can't.

I then wrote out and posted a conditional statement along these lines:

'Jesus, if you exist then I accept you as my saviour. I do not think you do exist but who knows?'

I also posted a similar statement for Allah.

Is a conditional statement of acceptance sufficient for heaven?

Has anyone heard of this sort of thing being accepted by a church? I mean, they believe Jesus exists so they should accept the condition as having been fulfilled...

Just an odd thought, I guess...

Vorkosigan · 06-12-2002, 01:44 AM

Off to MRD

tommyc · 06-12-2002, 03:33 AM

Quote:

'Jesus, if you exist then I accept you as my saviour. I do not think you do exist but who knows?'

I think the fault they (the church) would pick up on would be the statement "I do not think you do exist". This automically means you would not be saved, regardless of the rest of the pledge.

In my opinion it matters not whether he exists, just whether you believe in him that will get you into heaven.

uhhh, hang on, if he doesn't exist then it doesn't matter anyway. Oh well, my first comment still stands though.

[ June 12, 2002: Message edited by: tomcooper ]</p>

WJ · 06-12-2002, 04:36 AM

David!

Just my personal opinion, I think that is a great statement. In a similar manner, revealed knowledge (revelation) can either be a coincedence or a miracle or intiution or determination or... .

As SK would say, without risk, there is no faith. (Sorry but I really like that quote.)

...just some more thoughts to put together..

Walrus

Jamie_L · 06-12-2002, 04:47 AM

The problem is that most theists consider "I do not think Jesus exists" is equivalent to "I CHOOSE to disbelieve Jesus."

In there convoluted logic, everyone knows on some level that God/Jesus is real (spiritual knowledge?). Thinking that God/Jesus is not real is the result of some spiritual denial - even if you don't intellectually realize that you are denying it.

If you choose to believe, then that spiritual denial will disappear - and it will all make sense.

Yeah, right.

Jamie

Perchance · 06-12-2002, 06:10 AM

I've prayed to God/Jesus a few times in my life (as well as Allah, Shiva, the Greek gods, and the Wiccan God and Goddess). Just to see what it would be like. The last time that I did it for God/Jesus (about two months ago) I specifically asked for any sign that he/they existed, or would he/they talk to me if I asked?

Nothing. I didn't think there would be. (Besides, whenever I do try to pray, I can never quite get rid of the nagging little feeling that says 'you're standing in the middle of the room and talking to a bunch of air; did you really expect an answer?')

On the other hand, a few days after that I did stumble across the Internet Infidels...

-Perchance.

[ June 12, 2002: Message edited by: Perchance ]</p>

WJ · 06-12-2002, 06:35 AM

I agree. In much the same way, I'm wondering what the point of the entire forum is (not to mention the existence of God section)!?

One could easily suggest closing its doors, otherwise, what's the point of discussing faith/belief statements to the atheist?

Walrus

Godless Dave · 06-12-2002, 07:01 AM

WJ, the purpose is to try and figure out how you people tick, since you outnumber us and you can vote.

Koyaanisqatsi · 06-12-2002, 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Godless Dave:
<strong>WJ, the purpose is to try and figure out how you people tick, since you outnumber us and you can vote.</strong>

Chrestomathy · 06-12-2002, 07:14 AM

SK = Stephen King????

06-11-2002, 09:54 PM	#1
David Gould Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Australia Posts: 759	Conditional faith statements I have been having a discussion over at Christian Forums and an interesting idea occurred to me. There seems to be a big barrier between the believing and not believing ideas - Christians seem to think you can choose to believe; atheists know you can't. I then wrote out and posted a conditional statement along these lines: 'Jesus, if you exist then I accept you as my saviour. I do not think you do exist but who knows?' I also posted a similar statement for Allah. Is a conditional statement of acceptance sufficient for heaven? Has anyone heard of this sort of thing being accepted by a church? I mean, they believe Jesus exists so they should accept the condition as having been fulfilled... Just an odd thought, I guess...

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06-12-2002, 01:44 AM	#2
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	Off to MRD

06-12-2002, 04:36 AM	#4
WJ Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 812	David! Just my personal opinion, I think that is a great statement. In a similar manner, revealed knowledge (revelation) can either be a coincedence or a miracle or intiution or determination or... . As SK would say, without risk, there is no faith. (Sorry but I really like that quote.) ...just some more thoughts to put together.. Walrus

06-12-2002, 04:47 AM	#5
Jamie_L Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: U.S. Posts: 2,565	The problem is that most theists consider "I do not think Jesus exists" is equivalent to "I CHOOSE to disbelieve Jesus." In there convoluted logic, everyone knows on some level that God/Jesus is real (spiritual knowledge?). Thinking that God/Jesus is not real is the result of some spiritual denial - even if you don't intellectually realize that you are denying it. If you choose to believe, then that spiritual denial will disappear - and it will all make sense. Yeah, right. Jamie

06-12-2002, 06:10 AM	#6
Perchance Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Kentucky Posts: 1,059	I've prayed to God/Jesus a few times in my life (as well as Allah, Shiva, the Greek gods, and the Wiccan God and Goddess). Just to see what it would be like. The last time that I did it for God/Jesus (about two months ago) I specifically asked for any sign that he/they existed, or would he/they talk to me if I asked? Nothing. I didn't think there would be. (Besides, whenever I do try to pray, I can never quite get rid of the nagging little feeling that says 'you're standing in the middle of the room and talking to a bunch of air; did you really expect an answer?') On the other hand, a few days after that I did stumble across the Internet Infidels... -Perchance. [ June 12, 2002: Message edited by: Perchance ]</p>

06-12-2002, 06:35 AM	#7
WJ Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 812	I agree. In much the same way, I'm wondering what the point of the entire forum is (not to mention the existence of God section)!? One could easily suggest closing its doors, otherwise, what's the point of discussing faith/belief statements to the atheist? Walrus

06-12-2002, 07:01 AM	#8
Godless Dave Contributor Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: With 10,000 lakes who needs a coast? Posts: 10,762	WJ, the purpose is to try and figure out how you people tick, since you outnumber us and you can vote.

06-12-2002, 07:14 AM	#10
Chrestomathy Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Fort Collins, CO, USA Posts: 104	SK = Stephen King????

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