Karen M

[ July 20, 2002: Message edited by: Karen M ]</p>

Jayman

I'll take a stab at this. In the Bible faith is defined as believing and trusting the words of God. It does not mean having faith that He exists. Therefore, having faith is not a concious (sp?) action but a result of experiencing God.

I don't know if I explained that well so ask me to clarify if necessary.

Karen M

Therefore, you believe people do not have a choice over whether they have faith or not and who does and does not get into Heaven is predetermined? Is this a correct assessment?

FunkyRes

I personally am not a predestinationalist, I can't speak for all protestants, though.

Wether you choose to believe is a matter of your free will, God does not make the decision for you.

Karen M

Hello again Funky

Then choosing to believe is an action you must take in order to be "saved" that you have an individual choice of either doing or not doing? How is this different from a work? Again, how is this different from saying that, to go to Heaven, you have to dye your hair orange?

hologos

We seem to be "stuck" in semantics and "canned-man-made definitions."

Mankind seems to have no difficulty believing that he is and is therefore a free moral agent. In fact, he surely was; but somewhere, somehow, has become depraved in his very nature(re: 9-11). In other words, he knows not how to explain his existence nor his nature--much less the fact of that which is evil and that which is good. In effect, man is incapable, because of his nature, to discern such things-he is totally depraved, and completely incapable of a remedy within himself.
The world is filled with religion--most of it is pseudo. One could make a similar observation regarding science--much of it is pseudo--i.e. some religion of self in disguise.

Basic: God either is or He is not. We are either created beings or we are not. God has either revealed the truth or He has not. Mankind, in his total depravity has tried to kill God by making himself to be God. That is were we are today--saving ourselves--or better yet, what need have we of salvation anyway?

Is it time for a wakeup call? We have been getting one for nearly two thousand years. Is anybody listening?

To get to the basic question: Faith--what is it and from whence is it?

We cannot conjure one iota of faith--it is contrary to our nature to seek God. We do not seek God--He seeks us. Re: Book of Ephesians, Chapter 2, verses 8-10,KJV.

To those who say they were once saved, now they no longer believe, I would contend that they know not what real redemption is about. One does not find it in the hallowed halls of divinity school; yet a little child can understand that it truly is a gift from God.

Shalom

Gringo

That's funny; it wasn't until after Adam ate of the forbidden fruit of knowledge of good and evil that he could discern the difference. As it is written, "And the Lord God said, 'The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever"(Genesis 3: 22).

Jayman

No I don't believe that we are predetermined.

For the Christian who has faith he can't really decide when to have faith. For example, when you look at the sky you don't really have a choice of whether to believe it's blue or not. You have to believe it's blue because it's the only logical decision. I'm saying that as a Christian at some point we don't decide to believe God's word, rather we believe God's word because it has been proven to us through our life experiences.

Christians are saved through this faith. However, as stated earlier, good works result from faith in God's word. This is how works factor into the believer's life.

On the other hand, the unbeliever has not seen proof that God's word will be fulfilled. However, I don't think s/he is predestined for hell. I think God's mercy could save them if they choose to live a life characterized by good deeds. This is how works factor into the unbeliever's life.

In closing, faith is all that's necessary for the believer to get into heaven (realizing that works follow faith). Works, combined with God's mercy, is how unbelievers can get to heaven.

Kalestia

Faith without works IS dead.
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith- and this is not from yourselves, it is a gift of God- not by works, so that no one can bost. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." Ephesians 2:8-10
Works seems more like an expression OF the faith. If you have faith that Jesus has saved you, then you also- with the help of the Holy Spirit- wish to follow him. By doing so, you will want to follow his commands.
A protastant DOES believe you're saved by Faith. They say that it isn't us working our way to the level of God- because, due to sin, that is impossible. Rather they focus on God decending to US in the form of man.
Free will and predestination is a bit of a confusing matter. God says that he knows us better than we ourselves, that he knows the number of hairs on our heads. He knows what we will do, and he chose and knew us before he created us. Perhaps basically, we have a path laid out before us, and even though we're supposedly influenced (both by God and by the devil), we choose whether or not to stay on that path. Now this by no means implies that God will simply leave us alone. But we have the option whether we love him or not. God only wants those who love him, and (after our chance, which is our life) will cast away those who don't. Hell is not merely punishment for those who choose not to follow him. Hell is eternal separation from God- it is a place where he withdrawls his hand and his Holy Spirit, and simply lets us be. Any place without God (God is love, we can't even confess and mean "Jesus is Lord" without the Holy Spirit), then that place is certain to be a "living hell". It's not a place where the devil rules or anything, I just imagine it as you being stuck in a room filled with wickedness, demons, and the devil himself... So who's to say it wouldn't be torture?
Anyways, lol, I hope that helps ^^;; I tend to babble on these subjects...

Karen M

Thank you for your post Jayman

It has been most helpful.

[ July 21, 2002: Message edited by: Karen M ]</p>