brighid

Kuu,

You were right to be terrified about what he would do AFTER you left, as this is the time most women and/or their children are murdered by their abusers. Women in abusive situations KNOW this and they are forced to chose between living an abused life, or being violently murdered.

The average person has a very poor understanding with regard to the psychological dynamics between the abused woman and her abuser (or the abused man for that matter.) They often think they started off hiting you on the 1st date and you just stayed.

edited to add: It's a slow progression starting off possibly with possessiveness and jealousy masked as genuine love and concern, then it may turn into more controlling behavior, then comes the belittling, the mind games, the beating down of your mental resistance through verbal and emotional abuse, then threats of violence, stalking you, needing to know where you are every minute, and with whom, the physical aggression, then the 1st slap, then the "I'm sorry, I love you, I never meant to hurt it, it won't happen again", followed by presents and a period of calm, then the next time it's worse, then the threats of more violence and the follow through, threats of harming your children, your family, your friends, then the severe beatings, trips to the hospital, calls to the police, he is temporarily jailed, released, he returns or finds you, he harasses you at work, gets you fired, to destroy your financial security .... and then some day he tries to kill you and often times he succeeds ....

Unfortunately our society does not educated it's members about the warning signs of an abusive partner, and for the role they teach women: to be submissive, you are the property of the household male, he has authority over you, you somehow deserve it ... certainly doesn't aide in abetting the domestic violence issue millions of women and children are plagued with every year. And there is little support once you find yourself a victim.

I've been there. I know and law enforcement and our judicial system are largely unwilling and impotent in protecting a woman (and her children) from her abuser. He will shoot you dead on the steps of the court house as you are going to get that Temporary Restraining Order (TRO.) There are too few safe houses for abused women and children to go to, and too few cops willing to intervene in a "domestic situation", or the cops hands are tied by the laws and they are unable to help. Either way the abused suffer unimagineable violence, terror and all too often death.

You DID the right thing. You did your best to protect yourself and your children given your situation. You were lucky HE left before things got much worse. If I were in your situation and I found myself pregnant I would have gotten an abortion too. If you died the things that could have happened to your children ... well you know they wouldn't have been very good. Sometimes the best decision to make is the hardest!

Don't listen to unreasonable, stupid people who only like to hear themselves talk and have no clue what it is like to be in constant fear of your life. Pay no credence to their ill informed, idiotic and pathetic ..... uhhhh.... stupidity!

If you EVER need support on this situation you can always PM me, post in this or any other forum (but the advice might not always be what you want to hear, so be forewarned.) But if you want a sympathetic ear, or if you need help finding resources in your area DO let me know. I will gladly do all that I can. I know you are no longer in that situation, but I would venture a guess to say the scars remain. It might help to talk with other men and women who have been through your situation for a cathartic release and caring support.

Moral choices are rarely black and white, IMHO. All circumstances must be weighed and sometimes our best choice may be "immoral" under different circumstances, the choice may even be painful and have far reaching consequences, but you can only do the best you can at the moment. And like someone else said you simply don't have the benefit of hindsight at the time you need it. That is why it is important to freely share our experiences with others, have long and involved discussions about morality, provide constructive criticism and do our best to support one another.

Brighid

Monkeybot

Utterly appalling. That's all I can say. I seriously cannot believe that there are people that lacking in empathy and understanding. Moreover, it shows a total ignorance of the dynamics of domestic abuse. Willful ignorance, probably.

Kuu, I hope you don't seriously believe what these people say. The fact that you were trapped in this horrible situation says nothing bad about you. The fact that you had the courage and strength to GET OUT and move on with your life, on the other hand, speaks VOLUMES about what kind of person you are. (A very good one, as if I even need to say it!)

No.

Even assuming there are situations in which a person willingly and uncoercedly stays with their abuser (which, in this weird and wacky world, there may be), it is still the abuser's choice to do wrong to his or her mate. Obviously, if one can get out, one should; but I'd say that in the majority of situations, this is not an easy thing to do, for emotional as well as security reasons.

Ab_Normal

No, no, no, a zillion times no!

Someday I hope my mother will tell me the story of her very short first marriage to an abusive guy. (I've only heard it second hand.) This was her advice to me when I started getting serious with Mr. Ab_Normal: "If he ever lays a hand on you, wait until he's asleep, and stick an icepick in his ear." Which I passed along to him, just so he knew where he stood. This is also the woman who taught me, "Hit soft parts with hard parts and hit hard parts with a stick." She was a good Catholic girl who got a divorce during the 1950's. I wish I was half as courageous as her (she? my mom, that is. I hate grammar.)

Kuu, you rock, and don't let those dolts get you down.

beyelzu

kuu,


When I hear about abuse, it makes me extremely angry, the vicious act of beating on a woman is extremely reprehensible. I would love to personally go out and shoot all abusive husbands in both fucking knee caps.

I had a freind named Rose who didnt leave her abusive husband, my sister tried to talk to her about it. I had moved about 4 hours away, and I didnt see her, Rose, often. My sister told me about the abusive relationship. I promised that i would come and break the fucker's legs, about a week later, Rose died from a drug overdose. Evidently suicide, but the police did investigate the guy. I have not forgiven myself for failing her. Nor, do I think that I should.

I have found that it is very frustrating for me to talk to someone in an abusive relationship about that relationship, because it seems impossible to convince them to leave for a variety of reason.


BUT THE VICTIM IS NOT TO BE BLAMED FOR THE FUCKING ABUSE.

Furthermore, I can not believe what those dipshits said to you. I do not think that they have seen abuse first hand.

I also think that your reasons for having an abortion were extremely legitimate, and their arguments were aimed at delegitimizing your decision.


Sorry, if my post seems incoherent, I find it difficult to talk about this particular subject coherently.

long winded fool

Are the victims of the WTC attacks as much to blame as the terrorists for being in the wrong place at the wrong time? Do the Jews share the blame with Nazis for their atrocities? It doesn't even matter if you were asking for it, the blame always lies solely on the abuser. Someone telling you that you should have left your abusive husband is about as logical as saying "you should have rolled with the punches. It's your fault you got a black eye." Would they tell a mother who lost her son in a car accident that it was her fault for teaching him to drive?? :banghead:

Sometimes on these boards, since nobody talks face to face, the desire to be right (and therefore "intellectually superior,") can make one forget that they are talking to a human being. (not to mention completely abandon objective reason.) Those people who can't forget their own superficial desires to be "right" (or angry) and won't objectively put themselves into other people's shoes actually deserve more pity than the already wounded human beings they ignorantly step on under their assumption of self-righteousness. While I would never want to be victimized, I would still much rather suffer evil than inflict it. You're a much better person, and are therefore much better off in the long run, than your ex-husband and those critical people who obviously consider themselves authorities on your life. If they ever have to suffer evil, (and I hope that they don't) maybe they'll think twice next time they think they ought to impose it on someone.

Amie

Dearest Kuu,
I am sorry that you had to be subjected to any type of abuse and I thought that was really unfortunate how some of those people reacted. I think its so easy to say "I would do this" when you are *not* in that situation.
I am a pro-lifer however those prolifers kind of sound like those creepy extremists that we hear about...

You did what was right because you are here. You survived.

Sabine Grant

((((Kuu)))). The victim of abuse becomes co dependent. It is not a conscious choice on her part. It is a last resort mean to cope with the situation. You end up reacting to the dysfunctional spouse and your emotions and thoughts are alterated thru that process.

Abusers are very good at inflicting shame on the victim. They make you the reason for their beating and verbal abuse. An abusive individual rejects personal accountability for his actions. They may at times express " I am sorry I hurt you" but it is part of a manipulation process. It is a reality that an abused spouse needs to be removed from the vicious circle of co dependency. Counseling is necessary and support groups will provide the means for the victim to have the incentive to leave.

Many battered women never file charges against their abusive spouse. They feel somehow responsible for what has happened because the spouse has endoctrinated them to think that way. There is also the hope that " he might change".....there is the fear of " what will I do alone?". There is such loss of individuality thru co dependency that it seems impossible to the victim that she will make it on her own. There is such loss of self estime and sense of worthiness.

I know one couple who was able to recover from the abuse /victim
relation. She left the home with the children making it clear via a letter that the only way he could ever retrieve his family would be if he took some specific steps : join an alcoholic rehab program, undertake counseling and support group for anger management and provide continuous financial support while they are separated. Which he did. It took five years for this family to be reunited with new hopes. I guess to him when the pain of loosing his family became greater than the gain of control, he measured what was the real loss.

In most instances abusive personalities are the product of having suffered abuse in childhood. Whether it was physical, emotional, mental or even sexual. Those folks can have access to recovery programs. The reality though is that the spouse can never be the one who is going to rescue that individual. Her role of rescuer propells her into co dependency.

There is no other way but to leave and set firm conditions for a possible relationship. Especialy when it involves children who may love both parents equaly.

It may be a good thing for you to join a support group for recovering battered women. Build yourself back best you can.

Best wishes, Veronique.

Egoinos

Its funny how people like to blame the victim as well as the criminal in lots of situations. I've seen people say the Jews were partly responsible for all they suffered during the Holocaust. I was taught at school that women were always wholly to blame if they got raped. And I've known someone in an abusive relationship (two men, in that case) who blamed himself for his partner beating him.

In no cases is that true. Even if, lets say, you were the trigger for abuse in one way or another, then that still does not make you responsible for it. Plenty of people find a partner irritating/whatever and don't beat them. It is their choice, and theirs alone, to be abusive, and the fault lies entirely with them. if you find a partner annoying, you leave: you don't hit them and say "look what you made me do!"

Gah. I can sort of understand an abusive person blaming their victim for the abuse, as a way of getting out of the guilt/making them stay. But I cannot understand people who were not involved blaming the victim - who asks to be the subject of abuse?

OCLonghorn

I'm pro-choice and I would support your justification for your choice in this instance. However...

OBVIOUSLY the victim is not to "blame". To me, "blame" implies a "preponderance of the responsibility" and is therefore usually too strong a word for these types of issues. It is quite apparent that the abuser is to "blame", since he makes the choices about when to intimidate, threaten, and strike.

However, that is not to say that the victim cannot, in any circumstance, bear any portion of the "responsibility" for the situation, however minute that portion may be.
None of us live in a vacuum and everything has repercussions ... Whether you are talking personal shame and embarassment or real mortal danger, the victim has to assess what she's willing to put up with before the abuse outweighs the repercussions.

For instance, any time there are children involved, matters are complicated. If there were not, I could justify a "whatever happens-happens" mentality to be free. But with kids, there are other considerations. I just wish more abusers could see that.

And its not the same as Holocaust or WTC victims. Don't be so simple as to use the latest fad of invoking the WTC disaster in every f--ing issue. (Today I saw a commercial with two US Army guys talking about how BowFlex helped fight the war on terrorism because they took it to Afghanistan and used it to stay in shape...Friggin' Christ!)

Those victims were blameless victims in the true sense of the phrase...either they were completely blindsided and didn't even know what hit them, or they were completely helpless to do anything about it.

Now, completely off topic: What if, hypothetically, there was ZERO abuse (threatened or otherwise), but the marriage was loveless, mismatched, going nowhere, etc....the sex was obligatory and dutiful in nature, but resulted in an unwanted pregnancy (assume reasonable precautions for birthcontrol). Laying aside the question of whether you owe anyone an explanation in the 1st place, could this be considered "non-consentual" and an abortion be justified?

long winded fool

Accepting responsibility for the situation in which the abuse occurred is completely different from accepting responsibility for the abuse itself. Even if the abused had foreknowledge that she would be abused and walked into it anyway, she carries no responsibility for the abuse. The abuser is solely the culprit of the abuse and therefore takes complete blame. You can criticize the victim's judgment if she had foreknowledge, but you can't logically say it's in any way her fault that she was abused. We all make wrong judgments at times. This doesn't mean that we're ignorant, nor does it mean we deserve any less sympathy than those who are completely blindsided and "blameless in the true sense of the phrase." A person who deliberately creates a situation conducive to abuse and is subsequently abused is also blameless in the true sense of the phrase, and rationally deserves as much sympathy as a completely helpless and unwitting victim of abuse. (Unfortunately, no one is perfectly rational.) The abuser in this example carries as much blame as the terrorists in the WTC example. Though the WTC may be a worse tragedy, and murder a worse crime than abuse, the assigning of the fault is the same.

And I think the latest fads are usually the best examples. They're fresh in our minds and drive home the point without wordy explanations as to what we're talking about when we use obscure examples. What exactly is it about them that make you angry?

I may be misunderstanding what you mean by consensual but...
If abortion in a case of non-consensual sex was justified, and the sex was non-consensual, then the abortion would be justified. If abortion were not justified in cases where the sex is consensual, then since the sex was consensual in the example, it wouldn't be justified.