Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Mageth · 06-16-2003, 08:43 AM

I'd like to once again thank Magus for contributing so many fine examples of "archaic Bible babel" to this thread. We couldn't have done it without you, Magus! :notworthy

And, iv'e examined my faith. Even after being on this board, my faith has only gotten stronger.

I asked you if you'd examined your beliefs, not your faith. You can maintain your faith in god without believing, for example, that the Genesis creation account and the Noahic Flood is history. Many Xians do.

God said unbelievers would be blinded from the truth, and seek the darkness over the light. I'm not surprised that you think the Bible is a big myth and a joke. God said thats how you'd react.

No, Magus, God did not say that. Some men wrote words to that effect a long long time ago, that's all, and their words have been compiled into a book that was then declared the inspired Words of God.

And that's a typical ploy for cults, BTW; declare that your cult, and your cult leader, have the Truth, and that those outside the cult blindly and willfully reject the truth.

And, despite your protestations, atheists are not seeking darkness. Give me a break. More classical cultism - declaring your cult as the "light" and everything else as "darkness."

And I don't recall ever saying the Bible is a joke. You have a tendency to overstate your opponent's position.

You aren't aware of it, but the more i'm on this board - listening to you all shoot down the Bible and insult God constantly, the more i realize the Bible is true because you are acting just like the Bible said you would.

Use some logic, Magus. The way I act is in no way evidence of the bible being true. Of course the bible says that those that don't believe will strongly criticize your beliefs. That's a classic cult method to harden its members against outside criticism. It's not god's prophecy; it's simple psychology.

You said above that you don't hate anyone. Now Jesus said that, unless you hate your father, mother, etc. you will not score enough points to reach the finals (to paraphrase). So can I assume that your not hating anyone, though the bible says you are to hate some people, that the bible is not true?

Note also that the bible says you are to sell all you have and give it to the poor. If you haven't done that, am I to assume that the bible is not true?

And we do shoot down the Bible quite a bit, don't we? But I've never insulted God. I've insulted people's conceptions of god, perhaps. Primarily because I think descriptions of god like you provide are insulting to god.

Mageth - outta curiosity - what would your reaction be, if Jesus did return?

It's not gonna happen, Magus. But, personally, I'm not worried if some god (Jesus is only one of many gods that's supposed to come back to save us all some day) shows up in the future. You see, if there is a god, it's not the vindictive, vengeful SOB you describe. In other words, I think that, if god shows up, you have more to worry about than I do, because I have a higher opinion of the old guy than you.

Mageth · 06-16-2003, 08:59 AM

Originally posted by Magus:

I don't hate anyone - I hate sin. And the world is pretty crappy. Thousands upon thousands of people die daily for selfish reasons.

What? Who would die for selfish reasons? Are you referring to suicides, perhaps?

There is endless, hate,

Largely resulting from the excusive religions, esp. the Abrahamic religions of Christianity, Judaism and Islam...

despair, sadness,

Largely resulting from the religions, such as Xianity, which paint such a bleak picture of the human condition and insist upon so much guilt for so many mundane human actions...

murder, violence,

Quite often done in the name of one god or another...

greed,

Quite often justified in the name of a god that gave his followers the right to conquer the earth and be prosperous...

lust,

A religious label for a natural biological drive, through which the religions apply guilt where none should be associated, and without which we wouldn't do much populating of the earth...

destruction, etc.

Again, quite often done in the name of one god or another. The flood myth interpreted historically is only one example of many from the bible. Reading the bible, one would think destruction is god's favorite pastime.

hezekiah jones · 06-16-2003, 10:50 AM

Originally posted by wade-w
Keep it civil, people!

My apologies. I occasionally get irked at the suggestion non-believers have a substandard conception of morality simply on the basis that they don't accept the ancient myths of wandering sheepshearers.

agnawstick · 06-16-2003, 04:35 PM

God knows all sees all,.... creates a huge planet, filled with abundant life, creates a solar system, that fits within a galaxy, which is one of millions like it.

In a garden, he creates a man and a woman, and he places the tree of knowledge in the only place where they can touch it. He could have put it on the moon. Why in the hell did he create a tree of knowledge anyways? So then his other creation... the serpent, manifestation of his boy Lucifer tells the couple to eat from the tree. They do, they didn't have knowledge remember. God didn't give them that. They were blithering idiots basically. So, God punishes them for setting them up to fail. He knew when he created them what they would do, what Satan would do, that placing this tree in front of their face would lead them to fail.

My best analogy for this is a pair of cute adorable puppies. You buy them, and you feed them up and load them up with water. You then put more food and water out for them, loading their bowls up to the brim. Then you leave them alone in the house all day and say don't go to the bathroom on the floor. You return 16 hours later, and you scream bloody murder at them as they pooped on the floor.

You kick them outside of the house, vowing to never ever let them back in, because of the mistake they made. No second chances. No deciding that you set up their situation poorly, and you will train them better, plus not leave extra food around so they will fill up their system while you are out and have to evacuate. No, you will breed this brother and sister together, but you will not allow their kids back in, but instead you will abuse them out in the backyard, which you will make as uninviting as possible. You will remind all future progeny that they do not deserve to go into the house because of the mistake of their forefather.... after doing this, you demand that they worship you.

The sad part is... the poor mutts for the most part will worship you as their master all the same.

You, in other words, are an a-hole if you act like God.

Magus55 · 06-16-2003, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by agnawstick
God knows all sees all,.... creates a huge planet, filled with abundant life, creates a solar system, that fits within a galaxy, which is one of millions like it.

In a garden, he creates a man and a woman, and he places the tree of knowledge in the only place where they can touch it. He could have put it on the moon. Why in the hell did he create a tree of knowledge anyways? So then his other creation... the serpent, manifestation of his boy Lucifer tells the couple to eat from the tree. They do, they didn't have knowledge remember. God didn't give them that. They were blithering idiots basically. So, God punishes them for setting them up to fail. He knew when he created them what they would do, what Satan would do, that placing this tree in front of their face would lead them to fail.

If He didn't create the tree of knowledge, where would Adam and Eve have gained free will? If they didn't have the ability to choose to obey God, or not obey - they wouldn't really have any choice at all. God wanted humans to love and obey Him because they wanted to, not because they had no other option. Love by force, isn't love at all.

Quote:

My best analogy for this is a pair of cute adorable puppies. You buy them, and you feed them up and load them up with water. You then put more food and water out for them, loading their bowls up to the brim. Then you leave them alone in the house all day and say don't go to the bathroom on the floor. You return 16 hours later, and you scream bloody murder at them as they pooped on the floor.

Faulty analogy. A puppies body tells it that it has to go to the bathroom no matter what. Its either that, or have the dogs bladder explode. Adam and Eve on the other hand, had an entire world of paradise - they didn't have to do any work, or anything they didn't want to. They could just bask in the riches and beauty of the garden. But that wasn't good enough for them. They had to have more. They wanted to be like God. So they ate from the tree, thinking it would make them like God. Thats called greed. Adam and Eve had no reason or requirement to eat from the tree. They did it because everything else in the garden wasn't good enough for them - they had to want what God had.

hezekiah jones · 06-17-2003, 12:02 AM

They had everything, but they wanted more.

That's brilliant. Mind if I use that for the tagline to my next pulp novel?

winstonjen · 06-17-2003, 01:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
If He didn't create the tree of knowledge, where would Adam and Eve have gained free will? If they didn't have the ability to choose to obey God, or not obey - they wouldn't really have any choice at all. God wanted humans to love and obey Him because they wanted to, not because they had no other option. Love by force, isn't love at all.

If A&E could only choose between different sets of GOOD choices , they would still have had free will. And it not be significantly different to our 'free will' now - it is already limited. For example, we can't fly by flapping our arms, yet you would not consider that a violation of 'free will'.

Quote:

Faulty analogy. A puppies body tells it that it has to go to the bathroom no matter what.

Yet the bible says that urination is 'unclean'. Ditto for the menstrual cycle. Still, apart from that technicality, the analogy holds.

Quote:

Adam and Eve on the other hand, had an entire world of paradise - they didn't have to do any work, or anything they didn't want to. They could just bask in the riches and beauty of the garden. But that wasn't good enough for them. They had to have more. They wanted to be like God. So they ate from the tree, thinking it would make them like God. Thats called greed. Adam and Eve had no reason or requirement to eat from the tree. They did it because everything else in the garden wasn't good enough for them - they had to want what God had.

No, they were conned by something that god let in the garden anyway, making him guilty by omission.

Magus55 · 06-17-2003, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by winstonjen
if A&E could only choose between different sets of GOOD choices , they would still have had free will. And it not be significantly different to our 'free will' now - it is already limited. For example, we can't fly by flapping our arms, yet you would not consider that a violation of 'free will'.

No thats not free will. They still are only doing what God wants them to do - they don't have the ability to obey or disobey Him. It's either do what God wants, or do what God wants. Thats not a choice.

Quote:

No, they were conned by something that god let in the garden anyway, making him guilty by omission.

No He isn't. So what, God let the serpent in the garden. Adam and Eve didn't have to listen to the serpent. They could have said, God told us not to eat from the tree - now get out. Its Adam and Eve's fault for listening to the serpent.

AndresDeLaHoz · 06-17-2003, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
No thats not free will. They still are only doing what God wants them to do - they don't have the ability to obey or disobey Him. It's either do what God wants, or do what God wants. Thats not a choice.

No He isn't. So what, God let the serpent in the garden. Adam and Eve didn't have to listen to the serpent. They could have said, God told us not to eat from the tree - now get out. Its Adam and Eve's fault for listening to the serpent.

So why doesn't God give each and every one of us a nice f***ing tree in paradise instead of condemning us to this world for the sins of our fathers?

ComestibleVenom · 06-17-2003, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
I'm not surprised that you think the Bible is a big myth and a joke. God said thats how you'd react. You aren't aware of it, but the more i'm on this board - listening to you all shoot down the Bible and insult God constantly, the more i realize the Bible is true because you are acting just like the Bible said you would. [/b]

If you take a bunch of silly beliefs and assert "People are going to shoot down my silly beliefs", the fact that people subsequently do attack the silliness of your belief is hardly vindication thereof.

The fact that you believe it to be validation exemplifies the irrationality of your faith.

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06-16-2003, 08:43 AM	#71
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	I'd like to once again thank Magus for contributing so many fine examples of "archaic Bible babel" to this thread. We couldn't have done it without you, Magus! :notworthy And, iv'e examined my faith. Even after being on this board, my faith has only gotten stronger. I asked you if you'd examined your beliefs, not your faith. You can maintain your faith in god without believing, for example, that the Genesis creation account and the Noahic Flood is history. Many Xians do. God said unbelievers would be blinded from the truth, and seek the darkness over the light. I'm not surprised that you think the Bible is a big myth and a joke. God said thats how you'd react. No, Magus, God did not say that. Some men wrote words to that effect a long long time ago, that's all, and their words have been compiled into a book that was then declared the inspired Words of God. And that's a typical ploy for cults, BTW; declare that your cult, and your cult leader, have the Truth, and that those outside the cult blindly and willfully reject the truth. And, despite your protestations, atheists are not seeking darkness. Give me a break. More classical cultism - declaring your cult as the "light" and everything else as "darkness." And I don't recall ever saying the Bible is a joke. You have a tendency to overstate your opponent's position. You aren't aware of it, but the more i'm on this board - listening to you all shoot down the Bible and insult God constantly, the more i realize the Bible is true because you are acting just like the Bible said you would. Use some logic, Magus. The way I act is in no way evidence of the bible being true. Of course the bible says that those that don't believe will strongly criticize your beliefs. That's a classic cult method to harden its members against outside criticism. It's not god's prophecy; it's simple psychology. You said above that you don't hate anyone. Now Jesus said that, unless you hate your father, mother, etc. you will not score enough points to reach the finals (to paraphrase). So can I assume that your not hating anyone, though the bible says you are to hate some people, that the bible is not true? Note also that the bible says you are to sell all you have and give it to the poor. If you haven't done that, am I to assume that the bible is not true? And we do shoot down the Bible quite a bit, don't we? But I've never insulted God. I've insulted people's conceptions of god, perhaps. Primarily because I think descriptions of god like you provide are insulting to god. Mageth - outta curiosity - what would your reaction be, if Jesus did return? It's not gonna happen, Magus. But, personally, I'm not worried if some god (Jesus is only one of many gods that's supposed to come back to save us all some day) shows up in the future. You see, if there is a god, it's not the vindictive, vengeful SOB you describe. In other words, I think that, if god shows up, you have more to worry about than I do, because I have a higher opinion of the old guy than you.

06-16-2003, 08:59 AM	#72
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Originally posted by Magus: I don't hate anyone - I hate sin. And the world is pretty crappy. Thousands upon thousands of people die daily for selfish reasons. What? Who would die for selfish reasons? Are you referring to suicides, perhaps? There is endless, hate, Largely resulting from the excusive religions, esp. the Abrahamic religions of Christianity, Judaism and Islam... despair, sadness, Largely resulting from the religions, such as Xianity, which paint such a bleak picture of the human condition and insist upon so much guilt for so many mundane human actions... murder, violence, Quite often done in the name of one god or another... greed, Quite often justified in the name of a god that gave his followers the right to conquer the earth and be prosperous... lust, A religious label for a natural biological drive, through which the religions apply guilt where none should be associated, and without which we wouldn't do much populating of the earth... destruction, etc. Again, quite often done in the name of one god or another. The flood myth interpreted historically is only one example of many from the bible. Reading the bible, one would think destruction is god's favorite pastime.

06-16-2003, 10:50 AM	#73
hezekiah jones Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: WI Posts: 4,357	Originally posted by wade-w Keep it civil, people! My apologies. I occasionally get irked at the suggestion non-believers have a substandard conception of morality simply on the basis that they don't accept the ancient myths of wandering sheepshearers.

06-16-2003, 04:35 PM	#74
agnawstick Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: arcadia California Posts: 65	God knows all sees all,.... creates a huge planet, filled with abundant life, creates a solar system, that fits within a galaxy, which is one of millions like it. In a garden, he creates a man and a woman, and he places the tree of knowledge in the only place where they can touch it. He could have put it on the moon. Why in the hell did he create a tree of knowledge anyways? So then his other creation... the serpent, manifestation of his boy Lucifer tells the couple to eat from the tree. They do, they didn't have knowledge remember. God didn't give them that. They were blithering idiots basically. So, God punishes them for setting them up to fail. He knew when he created them what they would do, what Satan would do, that placing this tree in front of their face would lead them to fail. My best analogy for this is a pair of cute adorable puppies. You buy them, and you feed them up and load them up with water. You then put more food and water out for them, loading their bowls up to the brim. Then you leave them alone in the house all day and say don't go to the bathroom on the floor. You return 16 hours later, and you scream bloody murder at them as they pooped on the floor. You kick them outside of the house, vowing to never ever let them back in, because of the mistake they made. No second chances. No deciding that you set up their situation poorly, and you will train them better, plus not leave extra food around so they will fill up their system while you are out and have to evacuate. No, you will breed this brother and sister together, but you will not allow their kids back in, but instead you will abuse them out in the backyard, which you will make as uninviting as possible. You will remind all future progeny that they do not deserve to go into the house because of the mistake of their forefather.... after doing this, you demand that they worship you. The sad part is... the poor mutts for the most part will worship you as their master all the same. You, in other words, are an a-hole if you act like God.

06-17-2003, 12:02 AM	#76
hezekiah jones Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: WI Posts: 4,357	They had everything, but they wanted more. That's brilliant. Mind if I use that for the tagline to my next pulp novel?

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