Treacle Worshipper

Originally posted by Tercel
LOL. Kind of and kind of. I would say "I do" and "I don't", but that might give the the wrong impression.
All is revealed here. (Where I post under the name Starlight). The discussion does wander a bit - I do suggest you read it all as it's one of the better threads I've been in and covers a good range of topics. However if you get bored, the meat of my explanation is in a post three-quarters of the way down page 2.

That is a very interesting thread; I enjoyed reading it. Thank you for pointing me in that direction

I would be interested to know (after you have read what I believe) what you think my answers to those questions should be.

Well, I will try to tell you what I've understood of your position, and then you can say whether I've understood correctly.

It seems that you do not believe in salvation by works. You believe in salvation by nature, which is a concept I've not come across before. "Nature" is what we make of ourselves throughout life. Those of us who become more like Christ (loving, caring, kind & so on) spend eternity with him, those who become cruel and hating do not. From what you said in the other thread, this idea of salvation is not dependent on having heard or believed the gospel; those who have not heard or who honestly cannot believe the gospel can still be saved.

Furthermore, as you indicate that those who become evil will try to escape from god, I think you must believe in some sort of hell. I have no idea how you imagine hell to be. You indicated that part of hell for evil people would be being exposed to god's love & light, so it can't be separation from god. You don't strike me as being for the technicolour flames, devils & pitchforks either

(Lots of people ask me and about the best I seem to be able to do is say "my beliefs don't fit your questions" )

Well, they didn't really, did they?
Hope I've managed to come somewhere close to your beliefs!
TW

Tercel

You're welcome.

Sound's pretty right-on to me.
You're probably a bit confused about what I think of Hell, because I'm a bit confused myself. The Eastern Orthodox teaching is that "in Hell, however, the Divine love constitutes a cause of suffering for the wicked. This is not due to God's love but to their own wickedness, which resents this love and experiences it as a torment". -from here

Or more explicitly:

"Now if anyone is perplexed and does not understand how it is possible for God's love to render anyone pitifully wretched and miserable and even burning as it were in flames, let him consider the elder brother of the prodigal son. Was he not in his father's estate? Did not everything in it belong to him? Did he not have his father's love? Did his father not come himself to entreat and beseech him to come and take part in the joyous banquet? What rendered him miserable and burned him with inner bitterness and hate? Who refused him anything? Why was he not joyous at his brother's return? Why did he not have love either toward his father or toward his brother? Was it not because of his wicked, inner disposition? Did he not remain in hell because of that? And what was this hell? Was it any separate place? Were there any instruments of torture? Did he not continue to live in his father's house? What separated him from all the joyous people in the house if not his own hate and his own bitterness? Did his father, or even his brother, stop loving him? Was it not precisely this very love which hardened his heart more and more? Was it not the joy that made him sad? Was not hatred burning in his heart, hatred for his father and his brother, hatred for the love of his father toward his brother and for the love of his brother toward his father? This is hell: the negation of love; the return of hate for love; bitterness at seeing innocent joy; to be surrounded by love and to have hate in one's heart. This is the eternal condition of all the damned. They are all dearly loved. They are all invited to the joyous banquet. They are all living in God's Kingdom, in the New Earth and the New Heavens. No one expels them. Even if they wanted to go away they could not flee from God's New Creation, nor hide from God's tenderly loving omnipresence. Their only alternative would be, perhaps, to go away from their brothers and search for a bitter isolation from them, but they could never depart from God and His love. And what is more terrible is that in this eternal life, in this New Creation, God is everything to His creatures. As Saint Gregory of Nyssa says, 'In the present life the things we have relations with are numerous, for instance: time, air, locality, food and drink, clothing, sunlight, lamplight, and other necessities of life, none of which, many though they be, are God; that blessed state which we hope for is in need of none of these things, but the Divine Being will become all, and in the stead of all to us, distributing Himself proportionately to every need of that existence. It is plain, too, from the Holy Scriptures that God becomes to those who deserve it, locality and home and clothing and food and drink and light and riches and kingdom, and everything that can be thought of and named that goes to make our life happy' (On the Soul and the Resurrection).

In the new eternal life, God will be everything to His creatures, not only to the good but also to the wicked, not only to those who love Him, but likewise to those who hate Him. But how will those who hate Him endure to have everything from the hands of Him Whom they detest? Oh, what an eternal torment is this, what an eternal fire, what a gnashing of teeth!

Depart from Me, ye cursed, into the everlasting inner fire of hatred, saith the Lord, because I was thirsty for your love and you did not give it to Me, I was hungry for your blessedness and you did not offer it to Me, I was imprisoned in My human nature and you did not come to visit Me in My church; you are free to go where your wicked desire wishes, away from Me, in the torturing hatred of your hearts which is foreign to My loving heart which knows no hatred for anyone. Depart freely from love to the everlasting torture of hate, unknown and foreign to Me and to those who are with Me, but prepared by freedom for the devil, from the days I created My free, rational creatures. But wherever you go in the darkness of your hating hearts, My love will follow you like a river of fire, because no matter what your heart has chosen, you are and you will eternally continue to be, My children." - from here


I am not entirely convinced. I am inclined to think that some, might be able to flee from God's love and light into darkness. The above said: "Their only alternative would be, perhaps, to go away from their brothers and search for a bitter isolation from them, but they could never depart from God and His love." But I would be inclined to think that perhaps they can escape God's love (their own perception of it anyway), and hide themselves in "outer darkness" away from all feeling of God's love and light and away from all the joyful souls.

John 3:19-20
"Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed."

This is more of the way I am inclined to think of it - that the light will be known to being there by everyone and we have the option of going to it if we wish. I am inclined to think that some will be happy to share their lives with others, who know everything about them, while others will hide themselves.

I'm inclined to think of the conditions of the two types of beings as that portrayed in Howard Storm's Near-Death-Experience. (Note: I am agnostic towards the truth/validity of this NDE and of NDE's in general. I also strongly doubt the truth of some of the statements of theology and the predictions of the future Storm receives. I refer to this simply because it gives a very good portrayal of how I would interpret the differences between beings of light and darkness, not because I believe it)

Well, in a way they do: I firmly believe in hell and disbelieve in salvation by works. It's just that what I mean by the two concepts is so different to what most people are familiar with...

Opera Nut

Hey Treacle, I had the same experience you did. Praying for guidance, walking into horrible job situations with landmines everywhere, totally unaware of the backstabbers and just plain meanies out there. Duh.......

Treacle Worshipper

Tercel,
Thank you for discussing this with me. It's a viewpoint I was totally unaware of, and I find it fascinating. I've bookmarked the links you posted, and I will have a good look through them.
If I have any more questions, is it ok if I ask you?

Opera Nut,
It sucks doesn't it? And, of course, the bad situations you find yourself in are god testing you or strengthening you. And you can't leave because this is where god wants you to be. Blech!

TW

TomboyMom

You have to give it to Amie for making this undefined, unsupported assertion on an atheist board. O.K., Amie, let's define "works" and come up with a way to test this hypothesis, thereby proving or disproving it. For example, you pick the type of religion and devotion of the prayers, and we'll have the number you pick pray for something objective that can be observed in the world, and test that against the same ocurrence without prayer, and let's see what happens. Then we can test the hypothesis, "Prayer works."

For example, when people prayed for the recovery of sick individuals, in a double blind study, they did not recover at any greater rate than individuals with the same illnesses who were not prayed for. In this test, prayer did NOT work.

Or are you using a different definition than ordinary English, like, "makes the person who prays feel better," or "makes absolutely no difference. (i.e., carries out God's will.)" If so, you should say so.

Rene

openeyes

GH says it better than me.

Opera Nut

"everyone everywhere treats others with respect, and helps the less fortunate" ??

Not in my experience!! I have had so many hellish bosses at my jobs, you would not believe. The legal system is full of vicious bullies with "Judge" or "Attorney" in front of their names.
I've been sued, threatened, harassed, etc. for no reason.

And I never saw a Christian that lifted a single finger to help me find a job or pay me for what I was doing for the church when I was unemployed, and they were well able to pay me, they were just greedy.

I feel like I've always been an outsider, and people give jobs to their buddies. For me jobhunting is like a brick wall.
:banghead:

Never

Speaking from observation only, certainly no personal experience as I've never believed or prayed.
It would seem to me that the good or harm derived from prayer would depend on the person utilizing it as to me they are conversing with themselves (which I do quite often, I just don't pretend I'm talking to a mythical being).
Those who are "lifting up their concerns" in prayer (I hear that statement from them) probably gain some comfort from sharing their needs with the mythical being who, granted, won't tell anyone else. Plus putting your problems into words sometimes helps a person deal with them.
Those who are actually counting on results can be dissappointed at best and harmed at worst if they did nothing on their own to solve the problem, counting on god to take care of it.
Then of course there is the possibility that chance will allow the desired results to coincide with the prayer and they will have validated the process.

Opera Nut

Hey Treacle, no I don't have to stay in a bad job situation because Gawd wants me to stay there....they can my ass without consulting me, especially if I do things like ask questions, break rules they didn't tell me, expecting me to be telepathic, trying to help the client save time and money with my problem solving skills, etc. I can't hold down a job for very long and I don't know what the hell goes on. I have been fired/not hired for some amazingly stupid reasons. I've given up on job hunting for that reason.

Opera Nut

Amie says prayer works. For example, the Kings and Queens of England are prayed for every day by millions of their subjects, that they should live long and healthy lives. However, their lifespans are no longer than the average English person in reasonably good health with access to good health care.

I think this example is in The Demon Haunted World, but I'm not sure.

Speaking of English royalty, if you follow their misadventures, check out this site. Interesting premise:

http://we3.org/