mark9950

Are the authors of all the books of the OT and NT writing about the same God?

Even though elohims used many times,it does not specify if a specific god is written.

God is a generic term,may pagan gods were dual dieties or brothers,father-son,etc.

Doctor X

Difficult question.

The "easiest" answer is for the NT.

NT:

The individual writers describe different Juniors with varying different messages. They reinterpret other writers--such as Mt and Lk using Q and Mk.

Now, they might very well argue that they are talking about the "same" Junior--with each claiming they have the "correct" version.

OT:

More complicated. El is a separate figure from YHWH. The Elohim is a very different conception.

However . . . would each write claim they have the "same god" as with the NT writers.

I am not as certain of that. There is iconographic evidence to support a development of gods--worship of El . . . development and rise of YHWH. Perhaps YHWH had an actual consort Asherah, but the iconographic and textual evidence support more of a embodiment of a power rather than an actual goddess figure. Be that as it may, either version of YHWH is "different."

Now, the texts are based on earlier traditions which the authors reinterpret if not mutate. Indeed, I love the passage where Mesha the king of Moab offers his son as a burnt offering which results in the Israelites getting squished. [2Kg3:4-27.]

Who is the god he sacrifices his son to? Be that as it may, the author either does not mind a YHWH willing to change his entire support over a human sacrifice or another god--some identify as Chemosh--is able to thwart the will of YHWH.

Now, whether or not the authors feel/felt that these various gods were "one and the same"--which I do not believe--they portray very different characters.

--J.D.

mark9950

http://www.spiralgoddess.com/Asherah.html

Is this true that king david worshipped this goddess?

I

Doctor X

Ooooo. . . .

First, the depictions of David--from the DH [Deuteronomistic Historian(s).--Ed.] and the Chronicler are much later than any historical David, of course. Indeed, the existence of a "historical David" is about as controversial as a historical Jesus. Bottom line: if a figure existed then what the hell do we really know about him?

So . . . unless someone has proof that if a historical David existed at a particular point in time, one might wonder if the predominant religion of the time would have included a goddess. I am unaware of any evidence of that.

Indeed, it rather disappoints me. On a few other threads I mention an exhaustive . . . I mean exhaustive [ZZZzzzZZZZzzzzZZZ.--Ed.] study of iconography I finally finished--should have just read the [CENSORED--Ed.] general conclusion. I has assumed that a formal goddess--Asherah--existed as the consort of, probably, YHWH if not Baal--who is sometimes kind of equivalent.

Anyways, while that is not unreasonable, the evidence of a defined goddess is not really there. It does not mean she was not a goddess of prominence, it is just that the evidence is not really there.

So . . . if we look the "Biblical David"--did he worship Asherah?

To the best of my knowledge, it is not there. The "Asherah" are kind of a tree icon which may appropriately represent a embodiement of an aspect of the more "universal" deity YHWH . . . somewhere, I forget, YHWH has Moses or Abraham or someone duck behind a rock because "the power of YHWH" is walking by.

So, David set up Asherah . . . or allowed them that . . . I will have to look through "the Book" a bit . . . this may have been just the representation in the minds of the writers.

Sorry for the length.

Reference:

Keel O, Uehlinger C. Gods, Goddesses, and Images of God in Ancient Israel. Fortress Press, 1998

--J.D.

EvilPoet

King David was guilty of adultery and murder. King Solomon (David's son) was guilty of idolatry. Solomon worshipped Asherah (Ashtoreth in the OT) not David (see: 1 Kings 11:4-6).

Doctor X

Ashtoreth is likely a variation of Astarte. My above reference has this to say about the 1Kings:

Asherah is much more "popular." There is linkage between YHWH and Asherah--
"YHWH and his Asherah"--in an extrabiblical writing. According to 2Kings, a cult for Asherah was introduced by Manasseh to eventually be eliminated by Josiah.

What does that mean? It means, perhaps, that a tradition of a goddess existed--or the writers felt there was. Perhaps one existed during the time of the formation of the text that the author(s) wanted gone.

The problem is that:

"Asherah" often refers more to the symbol--a tree or a pole--which may or may not represent a goddess.

--J.D.

Reference: See above

mark9950

If YHWH had no partner than how could they use elohim to describe God or are YHWH and elohim two different gods?

There has to be a partner somewhere and I do not think it was jesus.

Doctor X

Fortunately you caught me in my study. . . .

Actually, if you are interested on the relationships between the various El with epithets--"El Shaday" "El Sebaot"--Elohim and YHWH, Frank Moore Cross' Canaanite Myth and Hebrew Epic is a great overview . . . and is the source for most of this.

Might as well quote him:

of course . . . anyways, it seems that this was originally a verb attached to a god name like El. To give an example:

Such as "El who created such and such."

Soooo . . . at some point the verb separated from the noun. Does the "E" writer preserve a different conception from the J and P who use YHWH--though, I think, P also uses El too? Er . . . a bit beyond my understanding. I "think" at the time of collection of the stories, El rather = YHWH. Though it is possible that eventually they were seen as separate entities with YHWH eventually taking prominence. El is a rather common name--"god." Similarly, Baal, is "lord"--which makes the English translation of YHWH as "lord" rather interesting!

What I do not see in the OT--or heard of--is an active competition between an El cult and a YHWH cult even if the redactor brought together competing traditions.

Now, Elohim is "gods." It be plural.

In texts such as Job, the concept of other gods is quite taken for granted--though later readers will try to reinterpret them as "angels" or some such. Indeed, Genesis 3:22:

"Us?" there is no "royal we." However, nothing wrong with having a polytheism with "my god" better than everyone else.

Finally, what about the plural elohim? Many translators defer it as a singular--"god." I am not sure that is always proper. There is not a iconographic depiction of "a Elohim."

[ZZzzzZZZZZzzzZZZ.--Ed.]

I think we are at the end-process of mythmaking--we have El, we have now a separated YHWH, and we have gods--Elohim . . . not to mention some "sons of the gods" and a prosecutor . . . we have remnants of pantheons which, at the time of collection, have become a monotheism.

Where then the goddess? While I eschew the common "universal goddess" make-believe, I think one can suppose a consort existed. Canaanite consorts existed for El and Baal . . . why not the independent YHWH? The problem is that such probably got repressed at some point--Josiah reform?

Which is why I find it all fascinating!

--J.D.

mark9950

That all these peoples gods whether they considered them true or pagan to themselves had a goddess attached out of a tradition they could have had?

Doctor X

If I understand your question, I think you are asking if other groups gods had consorts would it not be reasonable to assume that YHWH did.

Well, clearly, El was worshiped--given the use of the name all over the OT texts of the Pentateuch. When he and YHWH became somewhat "interchangable" is beyond my ken--though the whole Moses-Burning-Bush-I'm-Not-Worthy seems to be a way to mythically "introduce" the concept that YHWH is separate and the real thing--that it is myth demonstrates it is not historical.

As the references indicate, while reasonable, there is not a lot of evidence for it.

--J.D.