Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Nikolai · 02-12-2003, 08:56 AM

Which Supreme Court Decision allows a student to refuse to stand up for the pledge? The best one I found is West Virginia Board of vs. Barnette . Is there one more recent?

beejay · 02-12-2003, 02:26 PM

I don't have my notes here...

There is a Federal Appeals Court decision (from the East, somewhere) that deals with not even needing to stand silently during the pledge.

I don't think there is any other Supreme Court decision...

I'll look further if you need more information.

Buffman · 02-12-2003, 03:56 PM

I have not personally checked this out, but the footnotes to the article at this URL might provide the specific information you seek.

http://supreme.lp.findlaw.com/consti...ment01/11.html

crazyfingers · 02-12-2003, 05:04 PM

I don't recall the case but I believe that it was in 1943 and basically said that the government does not have the power to tell people what to think.

gravitybow · 02-14-2003, 08:40 AM

The case is indeed West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, 1943.
Here are google results for selected search terms if you want to read several interpretations. I liked this particular article from the Massachusettes ACLU. It covers some recent conflicts in the school system despite Barnette. The Supreme Court Historical Society also covers it here.

Quote:

Nikoli posts:
Is there one more recent?

Not aware of one, yet. But it would be a shame if there were. I mean, what's left to clarify? Barnette is the standard.

Nikolai · 02-14-2003, 10:06 PM

Thanks everyone! Its just that one of the more conservative teachers was forcing one of my friends to stand for the pledge. So he asked me, with my known atheism and generaly liberal views, to help him out.

I figured that the Barnette case is probably the important one in this manner, just wanted to see if there was anything more recent. But I think it should be enough, unless of course my high school wants some friendly reminders from the ACLU

gravitybow · 02-15-2003, 07:50 AM

My google results above doesn't work any more. I quess those pages expire after a while. Anyway, if your friend wants to look at it further, I used the following search terms in google:

star constellation "supreme court" flag stand salute

If 'star' and 'constellation' seem a bit cryptic, they are terms from the following Barnette quote:

"If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein." -- Supreme Court Justice Robert Jackson

I'm curious what your friend does at this point.

beejay · 02-16-2003, 01:51 PM

From Missouri School Board's Association

Quote:

The 1978 case of Lipp v. Morris brought the attention of the Third Circuit Court of Appeals to a New Jersey law requiring all students to stand during the recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance. The court found that requiring students to stand during the Pledge was a violation of their freedom of speech because the act of standing was itself a form of symbolic speech.

The Third Circuit doesn't cover Virginia (that's the Fourth), so Lipp v. Morris is not binding in Virginia.

However, it is an indication that the courts in your area are likely to rule that requiring a student to stand is unconstitutional.

You could point this ruling out to your teacher and school administration.

If that doesn't settle this, contact the ACLU.

02-12-2003, 08:56 AM	#1
Nikolai Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Richmond, Virginia Posts: 422	Quick question regarding pledge Which Supreme Court Decision allows a student to refuse to stand up for the pledge? The best one I found is West Virginia Board of vs. Barnette . Is there one more recent?

02-12-2003, 02:26 PM	#2
beejay Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Richmond IN Posts: 375	Quick answer (with no research) I don't have my notes here... There is a Federal Appeals Court decision (from the East, somewhere) that deals with not even needing to stand silently during the pledge. I don't think there is any other Supreme Court decision... I'll look further if you need more information.

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02-12-2003, 03:56 PM	#3
Buffman Beloved Deceased Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: central Florida Posts: 3,546	I have not personally checked this out, but the footnotes to the article at this URL might provide the specific information you seek. http://supreme.lp.findlaw.com/consti...ment01/11.html

02-12-2003, 05:04 PM	#4
crazyfingers Contributor Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 13,699	I don't recall the case but I believe that it was in 1943 and basically said that the government does not have the power to tell people what to think.

02-14-2003, 10:06 PM	#6
Nikolai Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Richmond, Virginia Posts: 422	Thanks everyone! Its just that one of the more conservative teachers was forcing one of my friends to stand for the pledge. So he asked me, with my known atheism and generaly liberal views, to help him out. I figured that the Barnette case is probably the important one in this manner, just wanted to see if there was anything more recent. But I think it should be enough, unless of course my high school wants some friendly reminders from the ACLU

02-15-2003, 07:50 AM	#7
gravitybow Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Washington, NC Posts: 1,696	My google results above doesn't work any more. I quess those pages expire after a while. Anyway, if your friend wants to look at it further, I used the following search terms in google: star constellation "supreme court" flag stand salute If 'star' and 'constellation' seem a bit cryptic, they are terms from the following Barnette quote: "If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein." -- Supreme Court Justice Robert Jackson I'm curious what your friend does at this point.

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