Soul Invictus

I'm an avid reader and I've come across the Jesus myth as others may have. I have even read that there is no evidence of Jesus or his lineage of David, Solomon, and others such as Moses. I could quote where I read this before if anyone's interested. I've read how ancient civilizations don't have Noah's great flood recorded, so I was wondering if the existence of said characters can be corroborated from any historical documents that have been discovered. I will read other sources when I'm looking for more anthropological sources, and key Biblical figures are used...thus assumed to exist. I've read that key historians during Jesus' time make no reference of such a man, which is a damaging claim to me. I am looking for a few older scholars/historians to review their works. I've heard of Manetho?(I think) Herodutus and Josephus. Any input on these and others is appreciated. I was wondering is there any validity to the claim that there is no support (other than Biblical and religious texts) to account for historically revered characters such as Moses, King David and Solomon along with Jesus (Yeshua). I haven't begun to scratch the surface on my personal endeavor for the truth, but I appreciate all input. We seem to have records of his apostles, but this is a strong claim that I was wondering if anyone could shed any light on. Thanks a lot

Peter Kirby

The oldest pagan account of Jews is on Moabite tablets, which mention a war with King Ahab of Israel. (There is now a famous Tel Dan inscription thought to refer to the 'House of David'.) According to a later writer in the Bible, Elisha foresaw a crushing victory, and the Israelites turned back only when King Mesha burnt his eldest son. According to King Mesha himself, the Moabites scored a series of victories and captured several Israelite army bases. Both King Ahab and King Mesha believed that their favorite god was on their side, Yahweh for the Israelites and Chemosh for the Moabites. See The Unauthorized Version by Robin Lane Fox.

best,
Peter Kirby

joedad

Well, I'm a Jesus myther and ran across a theory that's obviously been around for a while but that seems to have gone unmentioned on this board. Then again perhaps the theory is bunk, and that's why.

<a href="http://www.freedomdomain.com/Catalog/catbookm.htm#RC-0130" target="_blank">http://www.freedomdomain.com/Catalog/catbookm.htm#RC-0130</a>

<a href="http://www.freedomdomain.com/relig.htm" target="_blank">http://www.freedomdomain.com/relig.htm</a>

<a href="http://www.shamanshop.net/mushrooms4.htm" target="_blank">http://www.shamanshop.net/mushrooms4.htm</a>

If you put any credibility into the writings of John Allegro, specifically his arguing that christianity is only a fertility cult, I suppose that would mean that many biblical characters are some kind of code. Almost sounds too cult-like a theory itself to be credible to me.

After reading and excerpt titled The High Priest from his 1970 book Sacred Mushrooms and the Cross in Leedom's The Book Your Church Doesn't Want You to Read, I got curious and did a quick google search.

Just happens to have my attention and curiosity presently. If it's pretty much hooey, which would not surprise me, I suppose I'll soon make that discovery. But it's an interesting angle and makes for interesting reading.

joe

King Arthur

The Moabite is 9th century B.C.

Of course there is the 13th century Merneptah Stele which mentions mentions that Pharoah's conquering of "Israel". A wall at the Karnak Temple is thought to depict Merneptah and the Egyptians in battle with "Israel".

There is also the "Shishak" relief at the Karnak Temple which is thought to dipict the 10th century victory of this Pharoah over Rehoboam (see the account in 1Ki 14).

Vorkosigan

Don't the 14th century Armana letters refer to conflicts in Canaan and mention the Hapiru?

Ugaritic inscriptions of the 14th century also refer to some of the Canaanite gods and their stories who later show up in Jewish writings.

In the period 1500-1000 there are Egyptian references to the nomadic Shasu who are sometimes called YHW. Relationship to Israel?

Vorkosigan

Peter Kirby

Did I misinterpret Lane Fox, who actually said that the oldest account of a Jewish king outside the Bible is on the Moabite tablets? I don't know; the book is not with me.

On the other hand, I would like to see more information before I conclude that these other documents are indeed speaking of the Jews. Perhaps some English quotes with etymological or lexicographic analysis of the key terms.

thanks,
Peter Kirby

Soul Invictus

peterkirby

are these Moabite tablets the same as the Sumerian tablets?also are they readily accessible to the layperson to study? (this applies to any historical texts)

also is anyone familiar with Herodotus, Josephus, or any historians'historical accounts of ancient civilazations?

Peter Kirby

Soul Invictus writes: are these Moabite tablets the same as the Sumerian tablets?

No, the Moabite stone or Mesha stone (apparently it should be singular) is written in Moabite (a relative of Hebrew), which is a different language than Sumerian. The Mesha stone is more recent than the Sumerian tablets.

Soul Invictus writes: also are they readily accessible to the layperson to study? (this applies to any historical texts)

This web page says that the Moabite tablet is 113 cm x 70 cm x 40 cm for a total of 39 lines.

<a href="http://www.angelfire.com/nt/theology/01intro.html" target="_blank">http://www.angelfire.com/nt/theology/01intro.html</a>

It took a little digging, but I found one English translation online here.

<a href="http://www2.ida.net/graphics/shirtail/moabite.htm" target="_blank">http://www2.ida.net/graphics/shirtail/moabite.htm</a>

Soul Invictus writes: also is anyone familiar with Herodotus, Josephus, or any historians'historical accounts of ancient civilazations?

Josephus can be found here:

<a href="http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/josephus.html" target="_blank">http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/josephus.html</a>

Herodotus can be found here:

<a href="http://www.isidore-of-seville.com/herodotus/3.html" target="_blank">http://www.isidore-of-seville.com/herodotus/3.html</a>

best,
Peter Kirby

King Arthur

<a href="http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/cgi-bin/ames150?slide=3" target="_blank">Merneptah Stele's "Israel"</a>

You can probably find a book at your local library or bookstore (or even somewhere online) that gives the transliteration of the Egyptian hieroglyphics.

King Arthur

<a href="http://www.louvre.fr/img/photos/collec/ao/grande/ao5066.jpg" target="_blank">Excellent Mesha Stele picture</a>

<a href="http://www.christiananswers.net/q-abr/abr-a019.html" target="_blank">Mesha Stele Translation and Info</a>

<a href="http://www.furman.edu/~bbibb/projects/israel2/general%20pages/jehu.htm" target="_blank">Info on the "Black Obelisk"</a> (mentions King Jehu of the Bible)

<a href="http://informationcentre.tripod.com/bibleproof.html" target="_blank">Archaeological Discoveries...</a>

<a href="http://www.specialtyinterests.net/amarna.html" target="_blank">The El Armana Age</a> (El Armana, Tel Dan, and others)

[ July 27, 2002: Message edited by: King Arthur ]</p>