Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Jack the Bodiless · 07-31-2002, 07:44 AM

Quote:

5.finally, as to Paschals' wager "plus"-Paschal's wager "plus" in one analysis of game theory is a risk averse Lorenz progression-the more information which proves or "tends to prove" the debate in one direction militates in favor of the risk averse option to that extent or degree(oblivion on one pole and God of the Hebrews/Christians on the other pole)(if you want other deities you have to prove them)

Then, in order to establish the position to take on this sliding scale of probability, you must also include the Bible's failed prophecies, internal contradictions, and the utter falsehood of the Genesis creation account.

These indicate that the Bible is fiction.

Further problems: Oblivion is not so bad, therefore Hell is a problem only if God exists. Also, God is portrayed in the Bible as unjust (e.g. repeated persecution of innocents for the crimes of others), casting the whole "heavenly reward/punishment" premise in doubt.

07-31-2002, 09:12 AM

Icb: others have dealt with the content of your posts; I am merely profoundly irritated by your spelling. If you are going to rabbit on about "Paschal's Wager", perhaps you might be so good as to explain who or what "Paschal" is, to say nothing of the wager.

It raise faint echoes in my mind of <a href="http://www.maths.tcd.ie/pub/HistMath/People/Pascal/RouseBall/RB_Pascal.html" target="_blank">Blaise Pascal.</a> Why not find out a bit about him and then tell us about "Paschal". Or could this be something to do with the paschal lamb? I wouldn't know: I'm only an ignorant atheist.
<img src="confused.gif" border="0">

Skeptical · 07-31-2002, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by lcb:
one, remember i am a debater and lcb is neutral here. you keep saying "self fulfilled", but offer no evidence it was "self fulfilled"-when i personally studied in detail the military after action reports for the battles fought in l948 and immediately thereafter i saw odds sometimes as bad as 75 to one against the jewish militia. arab armies armed in part with german equipment, etc etc....I am a historian and i have to tell you-it was a "miracle"/or secularly a "military miracle" that the jews defeated these attacking forces. So, i am afraid the Christians win this round of the debate-at this point.

If you are a historian, you should be aware that there are many cases of supposed "military miracles" throughout history. (I can name them off if you want, I am a layman military historian myself) There are many accounts of "unbeatable" odds being beaten through a variety of factors. In fact, the overall odds were only 5 to 1.

<a href="http://www.onwar.com/aced/data/india/israel1948.htm" target="_blank">http://www.onwar.com/aced/data/india/israel1948.htm</a>

One does not need to do an exhaustive study to know that Israel had a few advantages in the '48 war:

1) Support from WWII verterans fresh from combat experience
2) Material support from Czech. and the black market bombers obtained from the US
3) They were fighting for their families, their homes and ultimately (they thought) for the very existence of the Jewish people. The arabs motivation was nothing close to this (1 man fighting for his home is worth 5 hired soldiers)

Once the Jews had managed to repel the initial attack and "dig in", the war was effectively over. The arabs would have had a very difficult time prying the jewish forces loose and would have experienced heavy casualties that they were not prepared to accept.

None of this requires any "divine intervention". Moreover, if I were Jewish and my parents had fought in this war, I would find it insulting for someone to say that the hand of god had saved Israel when it is so apparent that it was the courage, sweat and blood of real people fighting for their lives.

MarcoPolo · 07-31-2002, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DMB:
It raise faint echoes in my mind of <a href="http://www.maths.tcd.ie/pub/HistMath/People/Pascal/RouseBall/RB_Pascal.html" target="_blank">Blaise Pascal.</a>

"It raise..."? Shouldn't that be 'raises' or 'raised?'

(It's usually best to avoid correcting someone else's mistakes while making one yourself.)

{Edited to fix URL tag in quote - Pantera}

[ August 03, 2002: Message edited by: Pantera ]

lcb · 07-31-2002, 02:37 PM

skeptical, you raise good points and i thought the same way you do at first until i really got very deeply into the study of it and then my opinion began to change. I highly recc. an indepth and complex study of the battles (there were actually many dozens)and its an interesting study too if you love history.actually the military history of israel from the very beginning of history until now is pretty fascinating as well.I guess i have a little dog(chihuahua?) in the fight now.

lcb · 07-31-2002, 05:19 PM

may not be able to post for awhile,job duties "heating up", partisanship aside, y'all are very interesting people to debate with! keep your eyes on this upcoming Iraqi gambit-it may get dicey! say a little prayer or whatevere for me,....(they say if ya get sand in your eggs to pretend they're grits!)...cheers

Kosh · 07-31-2002, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lcb:
.actually the military history of israel from the very beginning of history until now is pretty fascinating as well.

All good fiction is.

Kosh · 07-31-2002, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lcb:
 keep your eyes on this upcoming Iraqi gambit-it may get dicey!

Yeah, we can start a pool to see how days the Iraqi army will last this time.

lcb · 08-02-2002, 02:33 PM

as an intellectual aside, I wonder why skeptics spend so many hours on the internet shadow boxing with a "non-existant God" and the believers of a "non-existant" God...do they spend as much time arguing with believers in Islam and Hinduism and Buddhism? Curiously, I doubt it,it seems there must be some kind of mystical pull to Christianity...otherwise why debate endlessly somehting one absolutely knows to be completely non-existant?

Toto · 08-02-2002, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lcb:
as an intellectual aside, I wonder why skeptics spend so many hours on the internet shadow boxing with a "non-existant God" and the believers of a "non-existant" God...do they spend as much time arguing with believers in Islam and Hinduism and Buddhism? Curiously, I doubt it,it seems there must be some kind of mystical pull to Christianity...otherwise why debate endlessly somehting one absolutely knows to be completely non-existant?

lcb - how many fundy stereotypical arguments can you come up with?

There's no mystical pull to Christianity. Christianity is a political force in this country, and a tool of conservative politicians. Christians agressively market their religion to unsuspecting consumers, demand that others respect their bizarre beliefs.

Besides, you are the one who has come here. I never went looking for you to debate Christianity.

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07-31-2002, 09:12 AM	#42
DMB Guest Posts: n/a	Icb: others have dealt with the content of your posts; I am merely profoundly irritated by your spelling. If you are going to rabbit on about "Paschal's Wager", perhaps you might be so good as to explain who or what "Paschal" is, to say nothing of the wager. It raise faint echoes in my mind of <a href="http://www.maths.tcd.ie/pub/HistMath/People/Pascal/RouseBall/RB_Pascal.html" target="_blank">Blaise Pascal.</a> Why not find out a bit about him and then tell us about "Paschal". Or could this be something to do with the paschal lamb? I wouldn't know: I'm only an ignorant atheist. <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

07-31-2002, 02:37 PM	#45
lcb Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: washington d.c. Posts: 224	skeptical, you raise good points and i thought the same way you do at first until i really got very deeply into the study of it and then my opinion began to change. I highly recc. an indepth and complex study of the battles (there were actually many dozens)and its an interesting study too if you love history.actually the military history of israel from the very beginning of history until now is pretty fascinating as well.I guess i have a little dog(chihuahua?) in the fight now.

07-31-2002, 05:19 PM	#46
lcb Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: washington d.c. Posts: 224	may not be able to post for awhile,job duties "heating up", partisanship aside, y'all are very interesting people to debate with! keep your eyes on this upcoming Iraqi gambit-it may get dicey! say a little prayer or whatevere for me,....(they say if ya get sand in your eggs to pretend they're grits!)...cheers

08-02-2002, 02:33 PM	#49
lcb Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: washington d.c. Posts: 224	as an intellectual aside, I wonder why skeptics spend so many hours on the internet shadow boxing with a "non-existant God" and the believers of a "non-existant" God...do they spend as much time arguing with believers in Islam and Hinduism and Buddhism? Curiously, I doubt it,it seems there must be some kind of mystical pull to Christianity...otherwise why debate endlessly somehting one absolutely knows to be completely non-existant?

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