Freethought & Rationalism Archive

jkb · 10-11-2002, 09:27 PM

got into a discussion with a friend about science and religion and he brought up the assertion that
gravity violates the law of convservation of mass and energey, need a little help with this as i have not seen this argument before and dont have the specific knowledge to answer this, Any thoughts?

[ October 11, 2002: Message edited by: jkb ]</p>

Abacus · 10-11-2002, 11:09 PM

Ask him how it violates the conservation laws.

primemover · 10-11-2002, 11:37 PM

I might start in a similar fashion as Abacus. I might also want to know how he related this assertion to religion.

case · 10-12-2002, 12:02 AM

Thoughts? Yeah, it sounds like your friend doesn't have the slightest idea of what he's talking about.

jkb · 10-12-2002, 02:30 AM

well i could never get a straight answer about how he thought it violated the laws, He just kept asserting that Einstein said it was a property of the universe and no one knew how it worked.
Everytime i asked him how it violated it, he kept asking me where the energy went that held us to the earth.

enigma555 · 10-12-2002, 02:55 AM

Your friend doesn't know what he's talking about.

No energy is expended by 'holding us to the earth'.

Energy has units of mass*distance^2*time^-2

An example is gravitational potential energy, force (of gravity) * height above the earth.

Another example is kinetic energy, .5*mass* velocity^2

If you fell a distance, all of your potential energy gets converted to kinetic (a little is lost to heat from air friction).

Standing on solid ground you have neither kinetic energy (you're standing still... velocity is zero) and no potential (your height above ground is zero). No violation.

Tell your friend that if he wants to go to creationist websites and use their incredibly dishonest (and quite frankly... full of shit) arguments, that he'd be best to actually study what the hell it is he's been conned into thinking is an actual argument. Using the cretinist garbage simply makes you look like a buffoon.

... And if he brings up that evolution "violates the second law of thermodynamics", you have my permission to smack him upside the head.

Friar Bellows · 10-12-2002, 04:46 AM

Well, it's an interesting and far from simple question from the point of view of general relativity. See, for example:

<a href="http://www.math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/GR/energy_gr.html" target="_blank">Is Energy Conserved in General Relativity?</a>

10-11-2002, 09:27 PM	#1
jkb Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 12	need a little help got into a discussion with a friend about science and religion and he brought up the assertion that gravity violates the law of convservation of mass and energey, need a little help with this as i have not seen this argument before and dont have the specific knowledge to answer this, Any thoughts? [ October 11, 2002: Message edited by: jkb ]</p>

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10-11-2002, 11:09 PM	#2
Abacus Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: South Dakota Posts: 2,214	Ask him how it violates the conservation laws.

10-11-2002, 11:37 PM	#3
primemover Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Fort Wayne, Indiana Posts: 22	I might start in a similar fashion as Abacus. I might also want to know how he related this assertion to religion.

10-12-2002, 12:02 AM	#4
case Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Missouri Posts: 420	Thoughts? Yeah, it sounds like your friend doesn't have the slightest idea of what he's talking about.

10-12-2002, 02:30 AM	#5
jkb Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 12	well i could never get a straight answer about how he thought it violated the laws, He just kept asserting that Einstein said it was a property of the universe and no one knew how it worked. Everytime i asked him how it violated it, he kept asking me where the energy went that held us to the earth.

10-12-2002, 02:55 AM	#6
enigma555 Regular Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 282	Your friend doesn't know what he's talking about. No energy is expended by 'holding us to the earth'. Energy has units of massdistance^2time^-2 An example is gravitational potential energy, force (of gravity) * height above the earth. Another example is kinetic energy, .5mass velocity^2 If you fell a distance, all of your potential energy gets converted to kinetic (a little is lost to heat from air friction). Standing on solid ground you have neither kinetic energy (you're standing still... velocity is zero) and no potential (your height above ground is zero). No violation. Tell your friend that if he wants to go to creationist websites and use their incredibly dishonest (and quite frankly... full of shit) arguments, that he'd be best to actually study what the hell it is he's been conned into thinking is an actual argument. Using the cretinist garbage simply makes you look like a buffoon. ... And if he brings up that evolution "violates the second law of thermodynamics", you have my permission to smack him upside the head.

10-12-2002, 04:46 AM	#7
Friar Bellows Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: arse-end of the world Posts: 2,305	Well, it's an interesting and far from simple question from the point of view of general relativity. See, for example: <a href="http://www.math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/GR/energy_gr.html" target="_blank">Is Energy Conserved in General Relativity?</a>

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