Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Tristan Scott · 09-16-2002, 03:27 PM

Quote:

The Sumerian stories are slightly different, the gods don't cause the flood. they know it's comming but they decide not to tell the humans, the god Enil wants to get rid of the noisy humans. He makes the other gods sware not to tell about the flood but Ea wants to save his creation so he spills the beans to Zisudra, his son by a human woman.

Yes, but the flood story in the Gilgamesh has parts that are so similar to the Noah story that it was almost certainly a "model".

RogerLeeCooke · 09-16-2002, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Lone Ranger:


A note. The size of a ship is limited, ultimately, by the strength of the materials used to build it. Try to build a big-enough ship, and it collapses under its own weight.

Even with modern shipbuilding techniques and technology, no one has succeeded in building a wooden vessel more than about 300 feet long. A wooden vessel this size is exceedingly unseaworthy, and quickly breaks up or capsizes in even the calmest of seas. All attempts to build larger wooden vessels have resulted in ships that collapsed under their own weight before they could even be launched.

A wooden vessel the size that Noah's Ark would have had to have been is literally a physical impossibility. Wood simply isn't strong enough.

Cheers,

Michael

[ September 16, 2002: Message edited by: The Lone Ranger ]

I was hoping someone would point this out. Noah's Ark would have to have had so many supporting structures that there would be no room left for the passengers. It would almost literally have to have been solid struts from one end to the other.

But it is clear that Amie is prepared to introduce one miracle after another, one catastrophe after another, in order to retain this belief. As long as she can find some reason, no matter how improbable, to explain away a hundred difficulties, she'll cling to them. This of course is not the way to arrive at the truth.

Lone Wolf · 09-16-2002, 04:06 PM

Amie,

Quote:

Note that the bible tells us that only land dwelling, air breathing animals and birds were taken on the Ark.

Be that as it may... how do you propose Noah rounded up koalas and penguins?

Quote:

you asked a question about the fish.

Actually, I said 'species', which includes fish, mammals, plants - any living organism. If they weren't included on the ark's passenger list, you have to explain their survival.

Quote:

Now if the whole earth was covered by water there would have been a mixing of fresh and salt waters, however we do not know how salty the sea was prior to the flood, I expect they were much less salty than the oceans we know.

What reason do you have to expect that?

Quote:

The flood would have been associated with massive earth movements, due to the weight of the water, which would have resulted in volcanic activity. We know that volcanoes produce enormous amounts of steam and lava creates hot water and steam which disolves minerals adding salt to the water.

You seem to be quite fond of volcanos. Can you provide any geologic proof that volcanic activity of this global magnitude has occured, especially in the last 5000 years?

Quote:

Also the movement of the water off of the continents would have caused erosion adding more salt to the water.

It would have added a lot more than salt. Even so, are you suggesting that the 'erosion salt' would balance out the added fresh water to the survival satisfaction of all ocean life? If so, then what about the fresh water species?

Quote:

Now as far as fish coping with another environment {snip}

Yes, you can name examples of organisms which can survive in multiple environments. What about the rest? That's why I mentioned coral. Coral is very particular about it's environment. PH balance, temperature, etc., are all critical - and many corals are endangered for those reasons.

Here's an idea... maybe you could try it as a class project! Start with a 100 gal. aquarium and set it up as a freshwater environment - including fish, plants, and snails. Now, add some sea salt and see what happens. If that doesn't finish them off, raise or lower the temperature by, say 15 degrees. For a grand finale, point a fire hose in the tank and blast away!

Quote:

who knows eh?...

Well, science knows enough to say there's absolutely no evidence that a global flood has ever occured.

Quote:

Lone Wolf if I am forgetting to answer something feel free to scmack meh

Diseases, bacteria, insects, logistics...

Or, if you'd like, we can get into the physics of ship construction. I'm an engineer and have looked into the feasibility of such a barge as the alleged ark. I can assure you... no such beast could have been built (nor could it be built today). Anyway, thanks for the response and I look forward to your answers to the other questions everyone has asked.

LW

*edited for typo*

[ September 16, 2002: Message edited by: Lone Wolf ]

RogerLeeCooke · 09-16-2002, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by marduck:
"Now the bible tells us that the ark was made of gopher wood"

They made wood out of Gophers!? that's gross.

The Sumerian stories are slightly different, the gods don't cause the flood. they know it's comming but they decide not to tell the humans, the god Enil wants to get rid of the noisy humans. He makes the other gods sware not to tell about the flood but Ea wants to save his creation so he spills the beans to Zisudra, his son by a human woman.

It's a good thing we weren't discussing what the Ark of the Covenant was made of. (Indiana Jones never mentioned it: Exodus 25:10. But be sure to get the King James Version of it.)

Jayhawker Soule · 09-16-2002, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RogerLeeCooke:
But it is clear that Amie is prepared to introduce one miracle after another, one catastrophe after another, in order to retain this belief.

Precisely. If God can do anything, God can do anything. It's a 'logical' argument that only becomes shameful when you claim it's science.

Infinity Lover · 09-16-2002, 04:35 PM

Where would Noah have gotten a bottle of champagne from?

How about the gasses from all the animal droppings. There was only one window, right?

How about those little flies that only live for one day?

Okay. Enough of the silly interlude, on with the serious posts

Marcel.

(Who thinks Amie can type ten fingers blind?)

[ September 16, 2002: Message edited by: Infinity Lover ]

Lone Wolf · 09-16-2002, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Infinity Lover:
Where would Noah have gotten a bottle of champagne from?

He had a still out behind the tool shed. C'mon... you've never had fermented gopher tree leaf champagne? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

Kosh · 09-16-2002, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lone Wolf:

He had a still out behind the tool shed. C'mon... you've never had fermented gopher tree leaf champagne?

I reckon that God showed up one day:

"Hey Noah, watch that water container! Poof! Now it's 'champaigne'. A little trick I'm working on for the future... hoping to get wine some day!"

Amie · 09-16-2002, 05:17 PM

It wasn't champagne it was Merlot. Try to keep up

Amie

Kosh · 09-16-2002, 05:44 PM

So Amie, do you have a list of scientists to support your claim that "many scientists" believe in the Flood?

How about evidence in the geologic record to support your claims WRT the salt water problem?

Or perhaps the "waters of the deep" claim?

Kosh, the eternally patient one.

[ September 16, 2002: Message edited by: Kosh ]

09-16-2002, 04:35 PM	#56
Infinity Lover Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,047	Where would Noah have gotten a bottle of champagne from? How about the gasses from all the animal droppings. There was only one window, right? How about those little flies that only live for one day? Okay. Enough of the silly interlude, on with the serious posts Marcel. (Who thinks Amie can type ten fingers blind?) [ September 16, 2002: Message edited by: Infinity Lover ]</p>

09-16-2002, 05:44 PM	#60
Kosh Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Orions Belt Posts: 3,911	So Amie, do you have a list of scientists to support your claim that "many scientists" believe in the Flood? How about evidence in the geologic record to support your claims WRT the salt water problem? Or perhaps the "waters of the deep" claim? Kosh, the eternally patient one. [ September 16, 2002: Message edited by: Kosh ]</p>

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

09-16-2002, 05:17 PM	#59
Amie Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: New York Posts: 1,626	It wasn't champagne it was Merlot. Try to keep up Amie

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.