Queen of Swords

Here's the link, Helen : <a href="http://www.alamoministries.com/tracts/english/HOLY%20MATRIMONY.htm" target="_blank">Holy Matrimony</a>.

Originally posted by HelenSL:
<strong> I think he's saying that certain behaviors entail certain risks of undesirable consequences - and that that's why God said don't engage in them.

Since he seems to think all birth control is sinful, that would include any birth defects that occur as a result of having been on birth control or being on it but getting pregnant anyway.

I hope you can see that's very different from saying that if you sin in any way, God is going to strike down your babies. It's more like saying - you ate too much candy and you got cavities - well, your Dentist did try to warn you...not, your Dentist decided to set your house on fire because you didn't listen to his advice. </strong>

To me the big difference is that one can clearly trace how cavities form. Bacteria grow in sugar solutions, fermenting glucose to produce acids, these eat into enamel, causing cavities. There is no clear chain of events from birth control pill to child born with deformity (if there is, please let me know). Therefore, that indicates to me that something supernatural happened along the line - which means that Tony Alamo's god personally stepped in to curse the child.

<strong>Why did I even post on this thread...I don't know that many people here even care whether they are misrepresenting Christians or not...</strong>

I'm not going to say "all Christians think so-and-so". However, not everyone who calls themselves Christian thinks the same way - equal time for conflicting opinions, don't you know.

HelenM

Thanks for the link

Ok, it's somewhat unclear what Tony Alamo means.

I don't know many, if any, Christians who believe God supernaturally inflicts the babies of parents he considers to have crossed some 'sin' line.

I probably do know plenty of Christians who would look at a circumstance where some risky behavior which they categorize as 'sinful', did result in the negative outcome that was a risk, and who would say "the person's sin caused that". But they wouldn't the outcome was by supernatural intervention. They'd simply mean that the person sinned and the undesirable outcome happened in the way that was always a possibility, that it would.

If that makes any sense.

Thanks for not saying "All Christians think so and so".

I suppose I had better not say "No Christians think so" either...

love
Helen

Queen of Swords

There's a definite possibility that sex with many people increases your chances of contracting an STD. So there's some reason for a Christian believing, for example, that the penalty for promiscuity is SDTs.

However, what's the possibility of methods of birth control causing deformity and death in children? Take condoms, for example. Where's the logic in that? How does using a condom lead to children being deformed?

Unless someone explains the reasoning behind this (eg. latex causes mutations in sperm), I'll have to conclude that an act of God occurred. Or maybe an act of Satan - sometimes, I find it hard to tell the difference, and Pastor Alamo doesn't make that any easier.

HelenM

I really can't tell whether Tony Alamo has erroneous information that birth control methods cause birth defects or whether he is thinking God does something to the babies of people who use it because it's sinful, in his view.

If the latter I don't see how he'd reconcile that with John 9.

But...whatever

love
Helen

JohnR

That was the sickest thing I have ever read.

[ August 07, 2002: Message edited by: JohnR ]

[ August 07, 2002: Message edited by: JohnR ]</p>

HeatherD

I would think the biggest thing to rationalize is the soul. As I understand it, fundies 'know' that the moment of conception is the start of life, even though all you have are a few cells. This is usually long before the development of twins.

At the moment of conception, the soul is placed into the 'child' Obviously this is a problem.

No where, as far as I can remember, is there a scriptural explanation of what happens to that soul.

Does god place two souls into the just fertilized egg, or does the single soul get split into two distinct persons?

Do the twins each have half a soul or does one come out soulless?

Echo

I've been mulling this over for a few days, especially after seeing all the "thank god for this miracle" posts on a few AOL newsgroups; and what I can't figure out is why theists view conjoined twins as an "abnormality" in need of "correction" in the first place.

Why don't they take the following perspective: God created them united, so that's the way God wants them. They are not an "error" in need of "fixing."

That would seem to be consistent with the whole idea of being God's creation and being made in his image.

But as someone pointed out, consistency isn't their strong suit.

scumble

What I find really annoying, is the complete undervaluation of human skill in seperating conjoined twins. Surgeons take a very long time to get to the stage where they can do such an operation. Arbitrarily dubbing it a "miracle" is to completely ignore the vast background of accumulated knowledge that exists in the medical profession.

The answer to Graeme's question is that any rationalisation is completely side-stepped. There is no way to determine God's will, so anything that ever happens can be ascribed to God's will arbitrarily.

recovering xtian

The next time I visit my doctor, I will make sure that I thank gawd on the way out and not her. I think I will stop in the waiting room and pray out loud, "Thank you gawd for allowing my doctor to perform my annual pap. I know that without you, this wonderful experience wouldn't be possible. I know that without your divine creation of the perfect disease, cancer, I would not have had the distinct pleasure of undergoing this procedure."

I wonder how the people in the waiting room would react? Do you think the fundies consider the pap a miracle too?

HelenM

Maybe it seems that way to you but I don't believe conservative Christians see it that way.

This is one of the most frequent 'straw man' characterizations of conservative Christians that I see here: that if you call something a miracle or thank God for it that means you cannot also be appreciating the skill and knowledge and dedication and perseverance - or whatever is relevant - of the people who brought about whatever the 'miracle' was or whatever God is being thanked for.

There are plenty of complaints on these boards about how Christians mischaracterize atheists (or, non-Christians in general). If you don't like it done to you, why do you do it to them?