Talking Rain

<a href="http://www.icr.org/newsletters/afmar01.html" target="_blank">From ICR</a>

Tell me they are exaggerating things here or something. Is there really support for their nutty ideas outside the US, and if so they can't possibly all agree on the same creation story can they?

-TR

Albion

I think Turkey is co-opting Christian fundamentalist creationism to promote its version of Muslim fundamentalist creationism and it's got a lot more government backing. I read an article at NCSE saying that if it carries on, we could be looking at what happens to a society whose science is based on scripture.

<a href="http://www.ncseweb.org/resources/rncse_content/vol19/9510_cloning_creationism_in_turkey_12_30_1899.asp" target="_blank">Here for turkey NCSE stuff</a>

There was a lot of publicity in March this year when a school in England that takes taxpayer money was found to be teaching creationism, and its heqadmaster and head of science are in close touch with the AiG and ICR folk - to the point of having a creationist seminar there and inviting some of these groups to participate. Richard Dawkins was writing furious articles and letters about it in the papers, and some prominent Church of England clergy came out strongly against creationism. The teachers at that school are affiliated with the Christian Institute, whose website has pages on Christian-based teaching of various subjects. When the controversy blew up, they took their science page down, but other pages are still there. The science page is available elsewhere; someone rescued it and reprinted it. Makes interesting reading. On the whole I dont' think they take creationism all that seriously in Britain, but who knows how it'll develop.

Here's the page on creationist science teaching, written by the head of science at this school:

<a href="http://www.darwinwars.com/lunatic/liars/layfield.html" target="_blank">http://www.darwinwars.com/lunatic/liars/layfield.html</a>

Here's some stuff about it from the papers, including Richard Dawkins getting irate:

<a href="http://education.guardian.co.uk/ofsted/story/0,7348,721588,00.html" target="_blank">http://education.guardian.co.uk/ofsted/story/0,7348,721588,00.html</a>

There are a number of links to related stories on that page.

This is what one of the CofE bishops had to say:

<a href="http://www.oxford.anglican.org/docs/101618522743334.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.oxford.anglican.org/docs/101618522743334.shtml</a>

I hope this all means that creationism is not gaining ground at least for now.

[ August 12, 2002: Message edited by: Vorkosigan ]</p>

beausoleil

I teach summer schools in planetary science occasionally to students interested in attending to university but uncommitted to a discipline. I've never had a student advance a creationist position. Students who believe the Apollo programme was a fake, however, are a sizable minority.

KnightWhoSaysNi

Yes, we have them here in Canada too.

<a href="http://www.create.ab.ca/" target="_blank">Creation Science Association of Alberta</a>

<a href="http://www.creation.on.ca/" target="_blank">Creation Discovery Project</a> (Ontario)

<a href="http://www3.telus.net/csabc/" target="_blank">Creation Science Association of B.C.</a>

<a href="http://www.creationnisme.ca/index_e.htm" target="_blank">Creation Science Association of Quebec</a>

<a href="http://www.creation-science.sk.ca/" target="_blank">Creation Science of Saskatchewan Inc.</a>

<a href="http://www.gira.ca/" target="_blank">Genesis International Research Association</a> (Calgary (right in my back yard))

They're all a mixture of YEC's and progressive creationists. And, of course, we have some U.S. imports:

<a href="http://www.reasons.org/chapters/canada/index.html" target="_blank">Reason to Believe, Canada</a>

<a href="http://www.answersingenesis.org/canada/" target="_blank">Answers in Genesis, Canada</a>

But if you scratch our back, we'll scratch yours. We've exported old earth creationist Hugh Ross, of Reasons to Believe to you guys.

Fortunately, none of the above groups have much popular support and/or political power compared to that of their friends in the U.S.

[ August 11, 2002: Message edited by: Nightshade ]</p>

Talking Rain

Thanks for the Info. guys. This is truly a sad state of affairs. These guys have ot be just a small vocal minority, right? I imagine with their resources and the state of science education they can make some serious headway. Now I am concerned.

-TR

Camaban

Well, as far as I know in Australia (someone else probably knows better) They're a small, ignored and given up on vocal minority.

(I can't say I've ever.... EVER heard of anyone seriously trying to get creationism taught in schools over here)

KnightWhoSaysNi

It's the same here in Canada, but they're not even that vocal. They usually stick to church related presentations and the occasional university talk when invited by a student group.

As far as the creationists' power and support goes, I think it has much to do with the evangelical Christian population. In Canada, they only make up 13% or so according to a Macleans religion poll I read. But in the U.S. it's a whopping 30%! Creationists in the U.S. would obviously have a stronger resource base.

The last time I heard them trying to get creationism into public schools was about 7 years ago in Abbotsford, B.C. by a local YEC group. As far as I know, their attempts were quickly shot down.

By the way, I'm sure the U.S. was quite happy to import Ken Ham from you guys.

Kuu

I have read a report that about 5% of Australians believe in Young Earth Creationism 9compared to about 15% who claim they have no religion)

However there has been a major court case here involving creationism. Unfortunately it has lead to a great financial burden to the scientist taking on the creationists

<a href="http://www.min.tu-clausthal.de/www/sga/news4/art6.html" target="_blank">http://www.min.tu-clausthal.de/www/sga/news4/art6.html</a>

I really admire Prof. Pilmer for the stand he has taken.

Camaban

Well, personally, can't say I've ever met one.

and the amount of people who you could honestly say have no religion is much higher than 15% (where I live, anyway)

KeithHarwood

They know they wouldn't get anywhere. In the US the school curricula are designed by elected committees who bring their political agendas to the process. In Oz the curricula are set by the universities and serve for university entrance exams. To get creationism into the biology curriculum they would have to persuade the majority of biologists in the majority of universities that they wanted their incoming students to know it. Fat chance.

It might be fairly easy to get it into a political science curriculum, because that is, in the end, all that creationism is about. It would be hard to get it into a comparative religion course because it is such a minor concern compared with the rest of the world's religions.