HelenM

ax

If you want Christian answers, the Secular Web is probably not the best place to look!

Ok, the following is a Christian answer. Y'all can rip it to shreds if you like...

Back to you, then, ax. Your questions are basically, is God good? Is He trustworthy?

And that is a matter of faith.

If you think about it, you're at the stage Eve was at, having talked to the snake in Garden of Eden.

I.e. previously God said to Adam - do whatever you like, eat from any tree - there's just one you mustn't eat from. And he evidently told Eve what God said because she knows it (pretty closely anyway) to repeat back to the snake.

But the snake infers that God is mean, that God doesn't want what's best for Adam and Eve. The snake implies that God is holding out on them. (This happened to be our sermon yesterday - that's probably why I'm thinking of it )

Anyway, so the snake says in effect "God is not good! God is mean; God doesn't want you to be like Him" and Eve listens and thinks, "Yeah! The snake is right!" - and think what's happened. She's lost her trust and faith that God is good and God wants what's best for her and that's the onely reason He told Adam not to eat off the one tree.

Having lost that faith that God is good, she eats it, she persuades Adam to join her (who evidently didn't put up a fight!)

And then God punishes Adam for disobeying a clear command. Is that fair? It's hard for me to argue it's unfair.

Was it a set-up? I don't see why it necessarily was a set-up. Adam knew what he was supposed to do and he deliberately didn't do it.

So, anyway, you see how once you get to this stage of doubting God it's pretty hard to be motivated to serve Him anymore. You're pretty close to jacking the whole thing in, if you haven't already.

If you discuss things here people are going to say that you're right; God is unfair, unkind, all the rest of it. Of course. Because it's the Secular Web. Unless one of the few Christians who hangs out here comes by. There are not many on here, compared to the number of non-Christians.

If you really want Christian answers then you need to ask your questions where you'll find Christians.

Oh, here's a place you can join and ask...you'll probably get a lot of answers here as long as you don't sound too much like you're already an atheist...go here, join and post on Bible Topics:
<a href="http://search.viafamily.com/bbs/cgi-bin/Ultimate.cgi?action=intro" target="_blank">The Christian Message Boards</a>

I can list a few others if you want. Just ask. And other people here know of Christian boards too because they go to ask difficult questions just like yours...

I think they are important questions that deserve an answer. I think it all hinges on whether God is good or not. I think the person who does the best job on the Internet of portraying God as good, is Glenn Miller, and his site is
<a href="http://www.christian-thinktank.com/" target="_blank">The Christian Think Tank</a>

love
Helen

Thor Q. Mada

Anunnaki,

I think you didn't stress enough the for ETERNITY part.
In that context the Muslim description of heaven looks far more attractive (at least for men). Coming to think of it most religions describe a better afterlife than the cristian one. Why would that be??

MikeMcK

A couple of people here have said that God creates us with sin natures.

That's not taught anywhere in historic orthodox Christianity. If you're going to ascribe that teaching to Christianity, fine, but could you at least show me how you came to that understanding?

Christianity teaches that sin entered the world as a result of man's actions, not God's and that it was God who offered mankind a way to reconcile himself to God.

So, I'm not sure the analogy of the father who pushes his son into the mud works here.

Mike

<a href="http://www.jimlauderdale.com" target="_blank">http://www.jimlauderdale.com</a>

ax

of cours the bible would never admit that!! open your eyes and look at the story, the bible does'nt
say that moses was a shadow of christ, but we can see it right?
Faith saves? I have faith that if I jump out of the tree my 80yr old grandmother will catch me, will that save me?-no.thanks to helensl, I'll go to those places you mentioned.Still, proof is all I ask for, prove god loved the innocent babies in the ot that were killed by order of god himself.What about the incas who had no knowledge of the xian god in days past? but seriously, i'm
looking forward to heaven, y'know, spedin all day bending over and "enjoying god forever". Its just an assured safe haven in the after life were looking forward to.(should god forgive us? or is it vice versa? oh no-sounds like heresy to me!!).

[ June 03, 2002: Message edited by: ax ]</p>

braces_for_impact

Helen, thank you for your response. Though Interesting I take a few issues with your statements.

And then God punishes Adam for disobeying a clear command. Is that fair? It's hard for me to argue it's unfair.

Though I applaud you for actually considering that god was unfair in his act, I disagree with a few of your ideas. Number one is that god is omnipresent, he was watching the conversation between the serpent and Eve, yet he did not intercede. Number two: When god made humans they were sinless, and without knowledge of good and evil. So what motivation would Adam and Eve have to not eat from the tree? Because god says so? But following commands (whether for good or ill) is a function of ethics. For god, in his omniscience to tell two people whom have no idea of right vs. wrong NOT to do something is clearly a setup.


If you discuss things here people are going to say that you're right; God is unfair, unkind, all the rest of it. Of course. Because it's the Secular Web. Unless one of the few Christians who hangs out here comes by. There are not many on here, compared to the number of non-Christians.

Your right about this in a few respects, but I resent your implications. It implies that 1) We are not capable of recognizing or being conscious of our own bias. 2) You seem to negate the possibility that the reason so many people think god is unfair, cruel, and unjust is because, according to xtian doctrine, god is presented as unfair, cruel, and unjust.


If you really want Christian answers then you need to ask your questions where you'll find Christians.

Though I agree you'll certainly find answers from a xtian viewpoint when questioning xtians, recognize that using only one biased source as a reference will certainly not lead to greater knoweldge, but greater bias.

I think they are important questions that deserve an answer. I think it all hinges on whether God is good or not.

I agree again. The issue of god being a benevolent deity is paramount, as much of xtian doctrine, dogma, and assertions relies heavily on this point. However, look around the world today. Unless you have rose colored glasses on, you'll see it for what it really is. Why would a benevolent deity allow the world to exist in it's current state? To say it is part of a 'divine plan' equates to saying the end justifies the means. I cannot tolerate that outlook in many facets of life, and I sincerely doubt a being that has knowledge without limits, that is good and pure could either. Also to insist that good cannot exist without evil is also an apology I cannot accept. This deity is supposedly omnipotent. He can do what he wants, how he wants, when he wants. To think that god must allow evil to exist to allow for good, or allow free will as a component of his 'grand design' places limits on this god. If there are some things that god cannot do, then why call him god?

In short, there is little evidence of god being benevolent, from world events and history, to the bible itself (old OR new testament), to xtian and religious history in general. All of these show a petty, jealous god. A combination of all the negative aspects of humanity, which is just what you would expect to find if religion was created by petty, jealous, primitive people looking for a way to assert control over others.

MikeMcK

Right. The problem is that you're putting your faith in faith, itself, rather than what the object of that faith should be.

Not every object of faith is worthy of your faith. The fact is, no matter how well intentioned she may be, an 80 year old woman simply doesn't have the strength to catch you. She may break your fall somewhat, but it's extremely unlikely that she could catch you except by sheer luck, regardless of how much faith you may have that she can catch you.

Mike

Queen of Swords

Ax,

I was once a fundamentalist christian. I believed that every word of the bible was true and that there was a god who loved us so much that he made a great sacrifice for us. I obtained at least some happiness from Christianity.

I am now an atheist. So what changed? I have read all the replies in this post, and Helen's struck me as providing the perfect analogy to my situation. The fruit of the tree appeared as sweet to me as it once did to Adam and Eve, and I ate it.

But what is this fruit? It is the knowledge of Good and Evil. In other words, it is not only discernment and wisdom and the ability to choose - it is one of the most fundamental perceptions of which human beings are capable. It is the ability to know what is right and what is wrong. Not everyone has it - some were placed in an Eden without such a tree. Not everyone wants it - they prefer that others tell them what is right and what is wrong. But those who eat... only they can say whether the taste is worth the punishment.

Ah, the punishment. For God so punished the world when it desired to have the knowledge of Good and Evil. Why would he place the fruit temptingly within reach and then deny it to his first children? What is so terrible about knowing the difference between right and wrong - and without that discernment, how would we even know that it was wrong to disobey God? We give second chances to children - God, apparently, does not. But I digress. The punishment was meted out. And instead of Eden, we gained the world. Instead of the presence of God, we found the fullness of our own selves (Christianity encourages you to be an empty vessel, but any swill or poison may be poured into an empty pot. Nothing can be poured into a goblet that is full of fine wine or clean water).

But most of all, instead of blind and mindless obedience, we gained the knowledge of Good and Evil. And it is this knowledge with which we weigh the words or deeds of men and Gods - and find them either wanting or well. It is this knowledge - for which a God once punished us - that we can use to save lives and explore worlds and help one another.

If there is a God, this is why he does not want you to eat that fruit - because in the day that you eat thereof, you too shall be as a god. You will think your own thoughts and determine your own life. You will not need Him - and by definition, you will not need authority figures that invest themselves with divine power and claim control over your life.

Christianity - especially the stricter kind that encourages you to think of yourself as a worthless sinner - is good up to a certain point. That point is the tree of knowledge. Few people reach it and fewer still will taste the fruit. I have seen them in my own family. They are happy to repeat words every Sunday; they will never think too deeply, because to think is to come perilously close to the deepest and most fundamental knowledge for which we are said to have paid the ultimate price. If that is the kind of life that pleases you, that will be your choice. But if you take that last, final step out of Eden...

...your journey into the world will have just begun.

Good luck.

[ June 03, 2002: Message edited by: QueenofSwords ]</p>

Anunnaki

His 80 year old grandmother has at least a chance of catching him since SHE`S REAL.

How the godmen of ancient fairy tales could possibly catch him is something you`ll have a hard time explaining to me.

Anunnaki

I was watching the Dennis Miller show the other night and his guest brought up a very amusing and overlooked point about Muslim paradise. 27 virgins might initially sound like a great reward,but after fucking the first 5 or 6 you`d be begging for a woman who knew what the hell she was doing.

[ June 03, 2002: Message edited by: Anunnaki ]</p>

Thor Q. Mada

At my age I would get that far!!