Ron Garrett

Amos-

Sometimes reading your posts reminds of Macarius and some of the other post Nicene writers, most particularly the Neo-Platonists. I read what you write, but I am not clear where you are coming from, at least not all the time.

If I understand your point about "sinful but saved" I am aware of the underlying theme in Catholicism that being set apart may be instantaneous, yet being conformed to the image of Christ is not. The confusion between Catholics and Protestants over justification, sanctification, salvation etc. is very semantic for no good reason I think. It's almost as if the debaters are more interested in laying claim to a traditional theological term than they are in making themselves clear. But I am nonetheless certain that the Calvinists are full of crap from a sola scriptura point of view are are just being obtuse about the reality of the requirement for active participation in the salvation process. "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."

To me the path to clarity about what Catholics through the years have held pretty consistently is in understanding the sacramental nature of the faith and the way in which various acts and practices are considered instrumental for imparting grace.

I think ritual, as with any habitual practice, can be meaningful and transformative if done mindfully and with the right goal in mind. That is why when I rejected protestantism my first retreat was to Anglican Catholicism, where much of the sacramental and ritual practices are preserved without the overlay of Mariolatry which in my mind was and is a rejection of the sufficiency of Christ and a compounding of the polytheistic reality of Christianity as opposed to the dogma and declaration. Now those distinctions are meaningless to me.

I've often though about becoming a Roman Catholic to experience the ritual and teachings from the inside. From time to time I spend a week in retreat at a monastery because I love the contemplative atmosphere and it gives me the opportunity to read uninterrupted. There's a lot to be said for some of the cultural aspects of your faith, and a lot to be said against some of them, but if you're content I'm content for you.

HelenM

Christians talking past one another, as so often happens...

Amos

Ron, I am not here to preach but wanted to make clear to you that Catholics are not Christians but sinners and actually are encouraged to sin through their confessionals (net effect). Sure, some try and fail and are needed to make sinners known.

What salvation really means in Catholicism (but is never advocated as such because it would remove the mystery of faith) is the convergeance of the left brain with the right brain in the Beatific Vision which can be part of life while here on earth. After this the left brain must be placed subservient to the right brain and intuition must become the ruler of our destiny (obviously because reason is placed subservient to intuition which is the memory of our soul). Purgatory is the time needed to discover "the old" (right brain) which is the wisdom of our ancestors that is incarnate upon us and retained in our soul (right brain), which now means that he who is in the "reign of God" can speak from both "the old and the new." We call this Mary who is therefore the seat of wisdom (and everything else we can think of for good reason).

Catholic teachings do hold that we can enter purgatory while on earth which must mean that we can complete it from which follows that we can enter heaven while on earth. From this should emerge the question if we can still "go" someplace after we are dead.

The problem might be that Catholicism cannot be understood or it would not be a mystery religion, and as usual, those who know do not speak.

[ February 22, 2002: Message edited by: Amos ]</p>

Ron Garrett

Amos-

That's a new viewpoint to me, but it's an interesting notion. Is that view part of the internal discussion in Catholic theological cricles?

BibleBelted

Ron,

Really excellent, tight writing. It seems we may have traveled very similar paths to unbelief. I agree that getting it read by the ones who need to see it is difficult, but worth the effort. If I had come across an essay like this while still struggling to make sense of xianity, it would have saved me years of trying to harmonize all the flabby, obtuse "logic" of theologians. Well, to call their reasoning obtuse is to defame obtuseness. Opaque is more like it. Take heart, I'm pretty sure there are lots out there who are coming down the path we traveled. I'll recommend your piece to any I encounter. Thanks for taking the time.

Pandora

Quote: "I've often though about becoming a Roman Catholic to experience the ritual and teachings from the inside."

IMHO the high church Anglo Catholics are far better at ritual and ceremony than the Romans will ever be. The RC churches I’ve been to have not been able to maintain the level of seriousness required. The priests try to be too close to the people to create the correct atmosphere.

Also, the choirs are awful, they don’t know how to ring bells, and there’s so much awful kitsch in the churches.

That said, they win hands down for the gruesome relic collections.

[ February 22, 2002: Message edited by: Pandora ]</p>

Amos

I would say not in theological circles because to disclose the secret of salvation would remove all the earnesty and urgency of the speaker and would turn religion into a game of pretension.

It is evident from the philosophy behind Catholicism that what I write is true. It is also based on my point of view that mythologies can be compared with each other and are transparent. I can and will do a poem for you to show that in literature this theme is very obvious and I can do hundreds of them.

Amos

[ February 22, 2002: Message edited by: Amos ]</p>

fcs25

Excellent message to both Christians[which I doubt many will read]and non-Christians.

At the last count of which I am aware of Protestant denominations topped 30,000 world wide.