cleopas

Hello,

I was hoping that some of the members here might be able to add their perspectives on a particular issue...an issue that will require I provide some contextual and background information.

I am a believer in God and one of His followers... that probably means a lot different things to different people, but to discuss it further would be better served in a separate discussion.

I have a close friend who is a disbeliever in any god.. again, the meaning of which is not paramount to my question. Suffice to say.. he calls himself an atheist and is exploring the possibility of adding humanist to his list.

We consider our friendship to be a strong one.. based on mutual respect, trust, and brotherly love. Most of the time, the differences in our personal convictions do not interfere with our relationship.

I come to the forum seeking answers because I sometimes get the feeling that he doesn't understand me because I speak as a believer. At times, it appears we speak different languages, and we both struggle with interpreting each other. I must admit that I'm having trouble understanding some of his recent activities.. and that difficulty might stem from my inability to interpret his activities as a disbeliever...or to be fair, his activities as a human being.

So, to the point of the question. My friend recently pointed out a very hateful post submitted by someone that claims to be a Christian.. posted on a Christian forum. The post was a call to all Christians to war against Pagans... and the implication was that if Christians fought together, they could 'kill' all the Pagans. I shared my thoughts privately with my friend, and we both agreed that the post was hateful and objectionable. That is where our agreement stopped though. My friend went on to join the discussion as he felt his duty was to speak against hate. His way of speaking out was to support all those that opposed the initial post. I did question his motives somewhat, picking a side, drawing lines, participating in the us vs. them kind of discussion that ensued. But that was his response and it seems his intentions were good.. that is not the part I found confusing.

The part I do find confusing is what he did next. He copied the original post with hateful comments aimed at Pagans, and he switched the words, substituting Pagan for Christian, and then posted the re-constructed text as a new thread under his own username. So now a new thread exists on that forum, a call to all Pagans to war against Christians.. to join together to 'kill' them all. He told me privately that it was an 'experiment' to see what would happen... to see what the response would be like. I will not claim to know what he thinks about his own actions, but he has mentioned no remorse or feelings of wrong-doing.

My reaction was a confused sadness. I'm confused because his actions do not seem to fit with his stated Atheist/Humanist ideals... at least to the extent to which I understand them. I must be missing something. I post here in an attempt to find what I'm missing and to hear other viewpoints. So, if you can tell me... is there some tenet or factor of Atheism, or Humanism that would support or encourage that action? If not, can you speculate as to what factors might motivate someone to do that?

I welcome any and all opinions on this topic, but I have no desire to pit people against one another.. so please respond privately if you would rather.

Peace in your journeys..

cleopas

DarkBronzePlant

Based on the details you give in your post, I too would be a bit dismayed by such an action. I've seen similar actions--that is, taking a hurtful post and switching around names and pronouns to make a point--used as rhetorical devices, but usually the context is just given sa that one post, and is usually either prefaced by or ended with a comment like "I'm not really saying such-and-such, but do you see how it hurtful it is when the tables are turned?"

Your friend might just be innocently trying to make a point, but his approach does seem questionable.

free12thinker

This is not something a humanist or atheist would condone, and it was very noble of you to ask, instead of assuming. A lot of people misunderstand atheism as a form of devil worshipping or Christian hating when that is not the case. We simply don't believe in god. This does not mean we hate those who do, they are certainly entitled to believe what they believe. We would never endorse any idea that killing Christians or members of any other religious denomination for that matter, and even if he was kidding, it's childish and caddy.

Once again, thank you for asking us and have great day. You seem like a very good friend to have.

cleopas

His re-constructed post contained no such qualifiers... no 'just kiddings'.

And yes, I felt and recognized the hurt from the original post, before the tables were turned .. although my personal view is that there is no table to be turned... I don't really see either post as being a Christian post or an Atheistic post.

Thank you for your comments.

Jamie_L

Perhaps his motivation was not to actually call for a war of Pagans vs. Christians, but to illustrate the lunacy of the original post.

Sometimes people see an arguement and construct a justification of it in their minds because they feel it comes from a like-minded individual. When faced with the fact that the arguement is independent of their personal stance, they may realize that the elements of the arguement are appalling. It could have been your friend's intent to shock people who did not speak out against the original post by making them realize they should be horrified by ANYONE calling for such a war.

But that's just a guess based on woefully insufficient information.

Another thing to remember is that in the U.S. (not sure where you are) it's still acceptable in the public arena to denounce and villify atheists. Nobody speaks up for us except us. Most everyone else tacitly accepts such things. That can get you real pissed sometimes - to the point of doing things that you might not do if you cooled off and thought about it.

Jamie

Kvalhion

Although I do not know you or your friend, it seems rather obvious that your friend simply turned the tables as described above. If he left out qualifiers it was because he was soliciting the comments that would obviously lambast his post, so he could point out the hypocrisy down the line. To consider that your friend honestly wants to band together and kill Christians seems a bit rediculous.

People who have a double standard are some of the most irritating people to debate with. Perhaps your friend could have and should have had a bit more tact, but I can see his viewpoint.

The sad thing is that in all probability the people upon that board will focus on your friends post and use it as an example of Christian persecution while ignoring the original post altogether. Wait and see.

cleopas

I offer my gratitude for all the reponses so far.. and I extend my offer to any responses to come.

Here are some specific replies to some of your responses:

That agrees with my understanding of humanism and atheism.. I will take special care not to associate the actions with the 'isms' or the 'ists'.


I'm in the U.S. and I do recognize what you said to be true, and that might partially explain where my fried was coming from...although anyone reading his post would not see an Atheist, his post will appear to readers as coming from a Pagan, many of whom do believe in gods, something that he does not believe in. Yet another confusing issue.

Perhaps Kvalhion, still the obviousness of his actions escape me.

Concerning the idea that he might be waiting to point out potentially hypocritical replies.. possibly. I would not dismiss the idea, however, the original post was generally responded to with objections and concern, both by believers and non-believers. And the response to my friend's table-turning post was much the same. Neither one of them receiving support... but there were a few ad hominem attacks in both threads.. mostly conjucturing on the posters sanity.

I think now my confusion has less to do with his intentions, and more to do with exercising the liberty to do the act in the way it was done, and the possibility that his intentions might still blur his acceptance of responsibility and accountability.. if not to a god, then to at least himself. I also worry about how his actions will impact others.. and I worry more that my friend might not have any similar worries. It is not that I think he really wants anyone to kill or be killed, its that someone else might.. and that in some small way his actions might contribute to the very thing he opposes.

As for my response.. well.. I have not participated in either thread. I have mentioned my concerns to my friend privately. I have prayed for the original poster and attempted to recognize my own capacity for hatefullness as a way to hopefully avoid it in myself. I have prayed for my friend and for me, that we will both avoid getting swept away by the pulling current of hate. I love him, and I need to show that to him often, especially as we work this out between us.

Thanks again for all your responses..they have helped. I need to give my friend the benefit of the doubt.. whether he made a mistake is a subjective issue.. regardless, we all make them from time to time.

Peace in your journeys,

cleopas

[ May 10, 2002: Message edited by: cleopas ]</p>

beachbum

cleopas

Please be my friend. Show this to your atheist friend and let him know that most of the atheists on this board consider you a true find.

Yes, In my opinion, your friend made a mistake in judgement. I cannot see what he posted coming to a good end. As otheres have said, this post will be turned around and used against your friend and any other atheist/humanist.

Fortunately, we are used to such abuse. We don't like it but we are used to it and get it a lot.

Tell your friend that you think he made a mistake and that beachbum agrees with you. That'll get him. I have a lot of power around here and when I say things everyone stops, comes to attention, takes notes and does what I say. So let that be a lesson to the rest of you out there.

Take care yourself.

Stan

cleopas

Thank you beachbum.

And might I add that should my friend appear here... I would recommend him as someone whose friendship is worth seeking.

Peace in your journeys,

cleopas

Jayhawker Soule

What was the quality of the forum? Were there Pagans resident on the forum and, thereby, subject to incitement? Would it have been obvious that the person was seeking to make a rhetorical point?

What was done may have been in bad taste. It may have been in bad form. It may have been, in context, fully warranted. Those are (differing) judgements I might make as a humanist. I might also, as a humanist, assert that the initial post was written by scum.

Being an atheist has nothing to do with any of this since, from my standpoint, atheism is not an ethic.

[ May 10, 2002: Message edited by: ReasonableDoubt ]</p>