RJS

That would fail to be sympathy.

She is calling herself unworthy, not you. And we are all sinners And she says nothing like you last phrase.

Wyz_sub10

I disagree. Let's say you and I are talking about work. I've just been laid off and I say "you give 15 years to a company and what do you get in return? A pink slip and a gold-plated Timex."

Now, clearly I am talking about me, specifically. But what's equally clear is that I am making a generalization - people are loyal, companies are not (whether I am right or wrong is not the issue). I am saying that it happened to me, it can happen to you and, in fact, it happens all the time.

Beamer's comments were about her, I agree. But she is definitely generalizing. If this was a reflective narrative about her *own* self-worth, it would have been stated that way - "I thought that I deserved a happy life, but I realized I didn't."

Her use of the second person clearly establishes her projection of this opinion to include others.

DarkBronzePlant

christ-on-a-stick,

I can empathize with you. I feel as horrible for Lisa B as I do for everyone else who lost a loved one.

But I'm sick of hearing her use her husband's death as a pulpit for Xtianity. Seems like every other time I watch Larry King, she's on there talking about her loving god who "controls everything", and how great he is for smashing her husband's plane into the ground. Or my fav, talking about the neat little coincidence that god created, what with her name and the Verizon operator's name both being "Lisa."

It is possible to empathize with someone's plight, yet still be horribly turned off by their way of thinking. Would I advocate telling her personally what you think? No; no reason to... everyone has the right to live their lives and cope with tragedy as they see fit. It still makes my head ache, though...

simian

I am probably going to get flamed for this, and I can't say that it will not be deserved, but it needs to be said.

Let's say for a moment that instead of death of loved ones in her life being the most traumatic thing that had happened to her, rape was. She then come out on the one year anniversary of some mass rape with a book saying something like this:

(Begin modified quote)
“You think you deserve a happy life and get angry when it doesn’t always happen like that,” she wrote in “Let’s Lay Back and Take It!,” her just-published memoir (first printing: 1 million copies). “In fact, women are sinners and deserve only rape. The fact that God has offered you hope of not being raped is amazing! You should be overwhelmed with joy and gratitude.”
(end modified quote).

What do you think the response of the community at large would be? What do you think it should be? I think everybody (with some small possible exceptions) realized how screwed up this world view is. But somehow, the idea that we have no right to live our lives, that we can, and indeed should be killed is OK.

Flame away.

Simian

Edited to add the original quote can be found at:
<a href="http://www.msnbc.com/news/801472.asp" target="_blank">http://www.msnbc.com/news/801472.asp</a>

[ September 12, 2002: Message edited by: simian ]</p>

RJS

I agree.

RJS

We all die. We all don't get raped.

Bree

Simian, I think you make a good point (and I don't think you deserved to be flamed). If you read the Good Book, it refers to women as nothing more than property of their menfolk - your rape analogy is spot-on, because according to the author(s) of the Bible, woman is useful for procreation, housework, and little else.

It's a sad, sad world.

christ-on-a-stick

Whoa Nelly, I made the OP right before leaving work yesterday and totally forgot about it 'til logging on this morning... so much to respond to!
Let me start with RJS:

Why do you assume that because I find her BELIEFS objectionable that I do not have sympathy for her suffering as a human being???? I have no doubt that she and her family have suffered greatly from their loss, as have all the others who lost loved ones on that day. But her suffering doesn't make her a saint! Just because she has gone through a tragedy, is she now "exempt" from any criticism or less-than-fawning comment?! She is the one writing a book, putting her beliefs out there, and I think it's ridiculous to act as though she should be handled with "kid gloves" because she is a victim. She is putting herself in the public eye, I'm not knocking on her door as she tries to grieve in private and asking her about her beliefs.


Out of context MY ASS. Are you trying to claim that she believes ONLY SHE is a sinner, deserving only of death, for whom God is offering the the hope of eternal life??!?!? Give me a break. Her fundamentalist Christian beliefs are well-known from other speeches and interviews; she is NOT just speaking about herself. She believes that we are all sinners and deserve only death, unless we accept HER God, Jesus, etc. For you to imply that she is NOT judging others through her beliefs is so disingenuous as to make we want to puke.

And to address your FIRST response, you're right - they were "playing God" by actively killing for their beliefs, she has done no such thing - and I didn't say she did. I said her THINKING is the same as theirs. Their ACTIONS were motivated by their THINKING. Just because she doesn't put her thinking into action doesn't make her thinking any less repugnant to me. She is perfectly comfortable sitting in her beautiful home in an affluent neighborhood with a nice cushy bank account and the sympathy and support of countless people, blissfully believing that we are all inherently evil but SHE knows the Truth and is going to heaven, but anyone who doesn't agree or who was raised to believe in a different God just as fervently is going to burn and suffer eternally. And she's happy believing that. And that makes me sick.

Oh....My.....Dog.... don't make me laugh. Or cry. Or both...

How the hell has her ability to deal with this tragedy been any more "inspirational" than ANYONE else who lost a loved one that day???? What has she done that is so inspirational??? She has been deluged with sympathy, support, outpourings of public acclaim for her husband's heroism, and been treated as a celebrity for the past year. Oprah asked her to appear on her show, but she was still afraid to fly, so Oprah sent her private plane. My point is that she has had EVERY ADVANTAGE in dealing with this tragedy that many others haven't had - no financial worries (they were wealthy), plenty of emotional support and celebrity treatment by the media. As far as having his child goes, how is that a reflection of her "ability to deal" inspirationally? I agree that being in that situation must have been ESPECIALLY difficult emotionally - I cannot even imagine going though childbirth so soon after losing my husband (yes I'm a her not a him!) BUT it wasn't anything that she DID - it was going to happen no matter what! Many, MANY other women went through the same thing (bore children of deceased fathers) - while it's sad, it's not an "accomplishment" and I think that there are probably plenty of women out there who have had these children whose true accomplishment will be raising the child alone without the financial security and public support that Mrs. Beamer enjoys.

Hey, if she were standing right in front of me and expressed the beliefs that she does in her book, I would have no qualms telling her exactly what I think of them (her beliefs); that they are sick, and dangerous, and that the world will never change while people still believe in such primitive and hateful concepts. How is this *bashing* her?!?!?! Like I said, her suffering doesn't make her a saint - is she as a human being beyond reproach or criticism because she lost her husband? I think not. She is expressing her views (in her book) and I am expressing how disgusting I think they are.

As far as the faceless coward comments goes.... well, I'll add you to MY list of sanctimonious, apparently theistic, assholes.

But anyway.....

Thanks to those who actually *get* what I am saying!!!

It just frustrates me to no end that the Xians in this country can't see their hypocrisy, and it depresses me that I sometimes feel that we as a human race are so, so, SO far from moving past competing superstitions and the primitive us vs. them mentalities that give rise to senseless atrocities such as 9/11.

K

RJS:

In my example, I never said that in the book you advocated killing children. How are these two sentences substantially different?

"All children deserve to be killed."

"We all deserve death."

Neither is advocating a specific action. Both are making a claim about what a group of people deserves.

christ-on-a-stick

Ok more not-working time to post now

Family Man said -

THANK YOU for putting it that concisely. My sympathies for someone's loss and human suffering have nothing to do with my opinions about their religions beliefs!!! As a human being I can both empathize with Lisa Beamer's suffering and admire her husband's apparent courage in his actions on the plane that day, while still vehemently disagreeing with their religious viewpoints.

One of my biggest "pet peeves" is that people's religious beliefs are treated as some sort of "sacred cow" that dare not be questioned or disagreed with, else you be labeled "insensitive". This seems to become even more so the case when someone is a victim - suddenly they are beyond reproach, they can say anything and if you dare to call it as you see it then you're the big intolerant boob.

I'm not addressing her suffering over losing a husband. I'm not addressing her grief. I'm addressing the religious beliefs that she is choosing to publicize and I am stating that I find them despicable and SADLY, FRIGHTENINGLY IRONIC in the sense that they are the same types of beliefs that led to the actions of the men that effectively murdered her husband.