Freethought & Rationalism Archive

EggplantTrent · 08-13-2003, 01:44 PM

I recently was in a discussion with someone when they told me that Jesus did exist, and he did die on the cross, and the writings of historians such as josephus and tacitus proves it.

I've heard that the writings of these historians are basically second or third hand accounts and are therefore not very reliable, but I don't know for certain. Can someone clear this up for me please?

EggplantTrent

Toto · 08-13-2003, 02:22 PM

Both Josephus and Tacitus attempted to write history - a chronicle of events - as opposed to faith-based religious documents. Both had their biases and limitations. While they both used second and third hand accounts, as most historians do, along with their own knowledge, they presumably had access to more sources than we do today.

I think that Josephus' reference to Jesus, even if it was not added by a later Christian editor, has to be classed as a second or third hand account.

Jeffery Jay Lowder discusses Tacitus here in excruciating detail, concluding that there is no proof that Tacitus had reliable independent sources for his statement that "Christus, the founder of the name, was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius."

Rick Sumner · 08-13-2003, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by EggplantTrent
I've heard that the writings of these historians are basically second or third hand accounts and are therefore not very reliable, but I don't know for certain. Can someone clear this up for me please?

I'm not sure that being second or third hand excludes it from being viable evidence.

Polybius once noted in his criticism of Timaeus:

Quote:

For since many events occur at the same time in dfferent places, and one cannot be in several places at one time, nor is it possible for a single man to have seen with his own eyes every place in the world and all the peculiar features of different places, the only thing left for an historian is to inquire from as many people as possible, and to believe those worthy of belief and to be an adequate critic of the reports that reach him.(12.4c.4-5)

Lucian agrees:

Quote:

As to the facts themselves, [the historian] should not assemble them at random, but only after much laborious and painstaking investigation. He should for preference be an eyewitness, but if not listen to those who tell the more impartial story.(Hist.Conscr.47)

Regards,
Rick
--------------------------------------------------
*Both quotes are as cited in Bauckham, "The Eyewitnesses and the Gospel Tradition", JSHJ 1.1

08-13-2003, 01:44 PM	#1
EggplantTrent Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: earth Posts: 150	validity of the writings of josephus I recently was in a discussion with someone when they told me that Jesus did exist, and he did die on the cross, and the writings of historians such as josephus and tacitus proves it. I've heard that the writings of these historians are basically second or third hand accounts and are therefore not very reliable, but I don't know for certain. Can someone clear this up for me please? EggplantTrent

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

08-13-2003, 02:22 PM	#2
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Both Josephus and Tacitus attempted to write history - a chronicle of events - as opposed to faith-based religious documents. Both had their biases and limitations. While they both used second and third hand accounts, as most historians do, along with their own knowledge, they presumably had access to more sources than we do today. I think that Josephus' reference to Jesus, even if it was not added by a later Christian editor, has to be classed as a second or third hand account. Jeffery Jay Lowder discusses Tacitus here in excruciating detail, concluding that there is no proof that Tacitus had reliable independent sources for his statement that "Christus, the founder of the name, was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius."

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.